File talk:Phonetic and phonemic transcriptions of audio record of Received Pronunciation.jpg
"Fold" should be [fɒʊld][edit]
It's very clear from listening to the recording that the speaker either has the wholly-holy split or, at the very least, an allophonic distinction between the vowels of "goat" and "goal". Tbe allophonic transcription needs to be updated to reflect this, although the phonemic transcription should be left alone, since it's not clear if the distinction is phonemic or allophonic for the speaker. --188.162.130.174 (talk) 02:14, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
- Fair point. Although I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's "very clear", there is indeed an allophonic difference between the onset of /əʊ/ in 'fold' and in 'cloak', as can be seen in the lower first and second formants in the former. I would put this down to coarticulation effects with the dark /l/ and the labial /f/ onset. If I had to change it, I would judge the onset of the diphthong in 'fold' to be near [ɔ] rather than [ɒ]. Unfortunately this passage comes from a journal article published some time ago and I cannot change it now. RoachPeter (talk) 18:02, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- How about a footnote in the article that uses this file? LiliCharlie (talk) 18:46, 20 March 2014 (UTC) LiliCharlie (talk) 18:57, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Good idea. I will produce something soon. RoachPeter (talk) 20:18, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Second thoughts - it would be much tidier if I did change the transcription itself, then submit the new image for an OTRS ticket as before. I will do this when I get back to my UK base. Incidentally, this allophonic variation in the /əʊ/ phoneme doesn't get a description in this article. It is mentioned as a transcriptional variant, which is not really the point. RoachPeter (talk) 14:16, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
- Good idea. I will produce something soon. RoachPeter (talk) 20:18, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- How about a footnote in the article that uses this file? LiliCharlie (talk) 18:46, 20 March 2014 (UTC) LiliCharlie (talk) 18:57, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
- Fair point. Although I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's "very clear", there is indeed an allophonic difference between the onset of /əʊ/ in 'fold' and in 'cloak', as can be seen in the lower first and second formants in the former. I would put this down to coarticulation effects with the dark /l/ and the labial /f/ onset. If I had to change it, I would judge the onset of the diphthong in 'fold' to be near [ɔ] rather than [ɒ]. Unfortunately this passage comes from a journal article published some time ago and I cannot change it now. RoachPeter (talk) 18:02, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
- I don’t think you need a new OTRS ticket. This image is now published under the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 and the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license — see here for the rules of the game. On the basis of these licenses I produced and published a not quite perfect vector version in pdf format (the image on the right).
- It is hard to believe that the emergence of a new phoneme /ɒʊ/ (or /ɔʊ/) contrasting with /əʊ/ isn’t mentioned in the article. LiliCharlie (talk) 15:46, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
- While we're at it, the GOOSE vowel can also have a pre-dark-l allophone, [uː], in modern Received Pronunciation, with its realisation in other environments being closer to [ʉː], as described by Geoff Lindsey in his article. Like the GOAT-GOAL distinction, this also creates a possibility for a phonemic split. I think it would be useful to mention that in the article on RP. 188.162.130.174 (talk) 13:47, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- And Luciano Canepari describes retraction for a few more vowels preceding [ɫ]... LiliCharlie (talk) 14:42, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- While we're at it, the GOOSE vowel can also have a pre-dark-l allophone, [uː], in modern Received Pronunciation, with its realisation in other environments being closer to [ʉː], as described by Geoff Lindsey in his article. Like the GOAT-GOAL distinction, this also creates a possibility for a phonemic split. I think it would be useful to mention that in the article on RP. 188.162.130.174 (talk) 13:47, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
