Talk:Virginia Military Institute/Archive 3

Pulitzer Prize

The article states VMI alumni have won the Pulitzer Prize. "VMI's graduates include a Secretary of State, Nobel Prize winners, Pulitzer Prize winners, Rhodes Scholars, U.S. Senators and Representatives, College and University Presidents, and CEOs. Some examples:" Which famous alumni won the Pulitzer Prize? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.98.148.173 (talk • contribs) 06:42, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The famous alumnus was John H. Crider, class of 1928. He won for journalism in 1949, while he was the Editor in Chief of the Boston Herald. Glad to have been helpful, if you have any other questions, please let us know.Tuf 16:26, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

African-American Cadets

Anyone have more information on the first African-American cadets at VMI? All we have in the article now is that one or more graduated from VMI in 1968. Any names, background on the the first to enroll? Thanks, Rillian 02:02, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Found some more background: first African-American enrolled in 1964. Also, the "Promaji Club", a black student organization was founded in the 1970s and it "created a Jonathan Daniels award for civil rights work and gave it to Salem's Cabell Brand, a 1944 VMI alumnus. Since then, VMI has turned the Daniels award into a major humanitarian award, first received by former President Jimmy Carter" Rillian 14:12, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Confederate flag ban?

Found an article from July 2003 that mentions "Officials at the Virginia Military Institute, cadets from which died fighting for the South during the Civil War, are contemplating a ban on all displays of the Confederate flag, reports the student newspaper there, The Cadet. Officials want to make being caught with a flag display a "number five" penalty, worth six weeks of barrack's confinement". Was this ban implemented? Rillian 14:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Found another undated article where Mike Guthrie, part of the SMI inititative, states "VMI has withdrawn the Confederate flag as a school symbol, banned the singing of "Dixie," no longer observes Confederate Memorial Day and deemphasized observance of the New Market Battle of the Civil War, where VMI cadets fought and died." [1] Are these still true today? Rillian 14:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

It is true that the singing and/or playing of Dixie is forbidden at VMI (I have been a cadet for 2 years). However, it is regularly heard as a favorite MP3 file played on a computer, or a cell phone ringtone. I must take issue with the "deemphasis" of the importance of the Battle of New Market. My Freshman class participated in two "obligatory" (for the lack of a better term) reenactments of this battle in 2004. We have a two hour long parade every year commemorating the battle and the VMI casualties. All cadets are required to learn the name, rank, and company of the VMI KIA at New Market. In 2002-2003 the short speech proceeding our "fix bayonets" command was altered. It used to give a light overview of the New Market battle, and explain the symbolism of the Corps fixing bayonets. It has been shortened to "the Corps of Cadets will now fix bayonets, a long-time tradition at VMI". This may be grounds for assuming a "deemphasis", but otherwise that is not accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by O'Donnell (talk • contribs) 16:34, 23 May 2006

Thanks for the info. What about the ban on the Confederate Flag and the observance of Confederate Memorial Day? Can you verify the status of those issues? Rillian 00:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be more proper to say that the school's administration has deemphasized official recognition of links to the Confederacy, but that students still find ways to express themselves on that score. · Katefan0 ^(scribble) 00:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

{{fact}} tag

This tag needs to stay in on the statement that VMI rings are the biggest class rings in the world, bigger than SuperBowl rings. There is nothing backing up this claim, and I have heard the same claim made by alums of numerous military colleges/universities. If a citation is not added, and someone removes the tag again, I will consider it vandalism, and will report it as such. Unverifiable claims do not belong in an encyclopedia.--Vidkun 14:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

The playing of "Dixie" was stopped in 1974. Since that time confederate flags have still appeared in many forms, including on class rings, the latest example being a design which a cadet could chose to have put on his "combat ring". The last example of this that i know of is the class of 2007's ring, who were the last to receive a ring144.75.147.38 00:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Only Classical?

I believe you are wrong in this discussion, being a VMI grad, I am of course biased towards my alum, but do hold a standard as to the legitimacy of certain claims in an encyclopedia. The Citadel (I hate to say this) IS A CLASSICAL MILITARY COLLEGE! All undergraduates are cadets, and all graduate students are of course, logically civilian, unless you wish to put a 30 yr old getting a masters in a uniform!! In fact, I would like to see more work done at VMI to initiate an efficient graduate program... They do not as you claim wear the same ring. Also, I hate to see the statement you make about VMI alumni. I have not heard of many that want to discontinue playing The Citadel, so what if they have a better football team, there is no reason for a VMI man to whine or complain about such things. User:71.30.69.93

First, you are wrong in your statements. The citadel DOES have night students who are undergrads. Folks can go to the community college for two years and transfer to get an undergrad degree from the citadel. Rings may not be exactly the same, but folks who were never cadets can wear rings with the name "the citadel" on them. You don't have to ask a VMI grad or a West Point Grad, or any real military Academy grad, "nice ring, were you a cadet?" More importantly, however, is the fact that I do not believe you are a VMI grad, but a citadel grad spreading false info...please troll somewhere else. NO VMI GRAD ALIVE WOULD SAY THE THINGS YOU'VE SAID ABOVE, BUT NICE TRY! Please leave your name and class and I'll be happy to talk with you off-line. However, to the other readers out there, let me assure you that VMI is the only "Classical state military college." ALL VMI students are cadets...period. There is no night graduate program, and no day civilian students... Please leave our page alone and stick to your own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.40.81.47 (talk • contribs) 10:24, 3 April 2006

It's quite simple, VMI is the only classical state military college.......PERIOD. There are no cilians at VMI whatsoever, and there would never be any push by VMI Alumni or supporters to change that. To do so would only dilute a system that is very unique and exists nowhere else. People wrongly lump vmi and the citadel together, but the schools are vastly different. The vast difference in the way the schools handled the female court cases alone should illustrate this fact. The citadel had been enrolling civilians and females since the 1970s. The citadel has civilians on their sports teams...they even had some guy enrolled in night school that was their star quarterback. That would never happen at VMI. And by the way, why are Citadel folks always messing with our VMI pages? To the guy who claims to be a VMI grad above...please leave your name and class. Marshall3 21:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey, please check out WP:OWN. These pages aren't yours.--Vidkun 22:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey Vidkun, these pages aren't yours either... Re-introduced the "Classical State Military College" note as it is factual, relevant, and useful in this encyclopedia. It shows a unique aspect of this school in comparison to other state military colleges.NASNAS 16:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

"state", "military", "college", and "all students are cadets" certainly are factual and relevant. What source do we have that defines the word "classical" to mean "all students are cadets"? A Google search for the phrase "classical state military college" only shows this article and various copies of it. If the average reader doesn't know that "classical" means "all students are cadets", then it is hardly useful for comparison. Does VMI use the phrase "classical state military college" in any of its materials? What not just say "VMI is the only state college in the U.S. (world?) where all students are cadets"? Rillian 16:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I do not think you can make this claim while many published reports would disagree with you, for example http://www.petersons.com/ugchannel/code/idd.asp?sponsor=36&inunId=5699 Specifically lists The Citadel and VMI as CLASSICAL STATE SUPPORTED MILITARY COLLEGES. I am not trying to troll here but it is how many see it. You are arguing some semantics because we allow night students to expand our faculty accreditation and academic growth? Most of these students are via our multiple cross registrations. We should meet in the middle here. Hell I just got in a fight with some one over an article on VMI. I did not let this clown trash your school, why are you trashing mine? Also, if you all want to see this article or are interested in it let me know. This is the kind of stuff we need to fight! V/R Drive23 65.217.57.101 18:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

The article explains exactly what is meant by "classical," and many sources of literature and various history books refer to the "classical state military college." The archives/museum at VMI, and countless other sources also refer to VMI as the "Classical State Military College." In the future I certainly hope you use other sources besides "google" or the internet for your academic verifications.......NASNAS 21:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Google is certainly a good starting point, but agree it should not be the only to search. Here are some other results. No mention of "classical state military college" on the VMI web site,[2] no mention in the searchable VMI archives[3], and no results from using the Power Search feature on Amazon. Since you are claiming that VMI is the only "classical" state military college, please provide some citations. Rillian 01:57, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

All, you all are arguing the wrong semantics. The definition of a classical state supported military school is based on curriculum. For example http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&vid=ISBN0811719758&id=rJ66wH17VecC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=Is+the+Citadel+a+classical+military+school&sig=7CylPmGSy1XlIijWsbRXWhb6spY The classical part refers to us being not 100% towards engineering as West Point was in our two schools early years. Also in order to ensure that you understand the facts about the Citadel CGPS please refer to the following sources Web Link: http://citadel.edu/r3/about/facts/index.shtml Just trying to help V/R Drive 23 68.80.152.145 05:05, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

To Drive23, with all due respect, I am not arguing semantics, and "Classical" in this sense does not refer to curriculum. Instead, in this sense, "Classical" refers to the fact that All VMI STUDENTS AND GRADUATES are/were cadets. This fact is not meant to detract from your or any other school (and I'm sorry this upsets you), but it does point out a very key and unique aspect of the Virginia Military Institute in comparison to any other "state military college" in the United States today. Thanks for your consideration.Marshall3 17:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I see your point. I can agree with your interpretation as noted above. I just want it clear that the CGPS is a separate college made up of many cross registration schools, part time students, and graduate students. This college has a separate administration, diplomas, and rings. People who graduate from it are known as CGPS Alumni. There is no interaction with them. Academically they are very important members of the low country community as is the CGPS. For example it is the only MBA program in that part of the state (as I understand it). But do you really think the night program means we have changed, or stepped away, from our mission and history? That is my question. Not in any way taking shots at your great school. Just trying to understand what the issue is here. It would seem this is a large issue as I read your guys page. Do not want to keep adding rubbish to this page (which is great) will continue on talk pages so as not to muddy the waters of content related to VMI. V/R Drive2365.217.57.101

Understood, I see your point given the CGPS. I have not had many run ins like that but could see where the confusion would come from, and would say that the logic here favors your point. Thanks for the response.

Regarding the Civil War Unit issue. I have been doing two years of work on both our schools (with others) during the Civil War. Would you be willing to hear me out on this issue? In order to ensure that my info is not slanted I have include works by both Citadel and VMI alum and professors. Otherwise it would admittedly come across with a bias. There is a lot of info being lost to history and trying to find some place to represent it.

Thanks in advance for your time, V/R Drive2365.217.57.101 19:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

This is still an encyclopedia. There is no room for chastisement or insulting phrases on this site. Personally accusing others and others schools is also unacceptable. Why all this animosity towards citadel and vmi cadets?? Just stick to each individual's schools pages and we should all be fine.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.225.142.212 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 29 April 2006

Action as a Unit

Your points about being the only school to see action as a unit are not fully correct. Please reference the following quotes and works: Charleston and the Vicinity “The first cadets to die were VMI’s, but the South Carolina Military Academy received the honor of performing the first field service of the war as a unit….” Conrad, James Lee. The Young Lions: Confederate Cadets at War. Stackpole Books, 1997 (page 45) http://www.sc.edu/uscpress/2004/3575.html The Battle of Tulifinny “The Cadets, with their fresh uniforms and immaculate drill, presented a stark contrast to the ragged militiamen and older veterans with whom they were soon to fight the Yankees. Veterans wondered aloud whether “those Dandy-Jim looking kids” would fight. The South Carolina cadets did indeed fight well, earning the respect of the veterans and their superior officers. At the resulting Battle of Tulifiny Bridge on December 7, they fought on the defensive for several hours, stubbornly holding their positions. When the enemy in their front broke, they charged and drove them, suffering one killed and seven wounded.” “The Citadel cadets did not know it, but the day they had embarked for Pocataligo would be the last of their academic careers.” Andrew, Rod Jr. Long Grey Lines: The Southern Military School Tradition, 1839-1915 (Pages 30-31). Additional Tulifinny references: Conrad, James Lee. The Young Lions: Confederate Cadets at War. Stackpole Books, 1997 (page 45) (Page 121 to 122 ) Baker, Gary R. Cadets in Gray: The Story of the Cadets of the South Carolina Military Academy and the Cadet Rangers in the Civil War (Page 137 to 152) Would any one be interested in helping with an article on Cadets in the Civil War?? V/R Drive23 68.80.152.145 05:00, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

To user 68.80.152........., Thanks for your input. However, the engagements you cite are far different from "ALL cadets from a particular school acting as a UNIT in pitched combat. Military units carry battle streamers for the battles the UNIT fought in as a UNIT. Having various members from a cadet corps serving in a battle here or there does not, under United States military regulations, entitle the school to carry battle streamers for those engagements (could you imagine the amount of battle streamers VMI or WestPoint would carry if that were the case? You'd need a wheelbarrow to hold them all!!). South Carolina STATE legislature voted to entitle your school (which was actually two different schools in two different locations at the time) to carry battle streamers. Your school, however, did not fight as a unit in pitched combat, only one school in the country holds that distinction.Marshall3 17:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Marshal3, I agree with you on the battle streamers. However, The Citadel as a full unit did fight as a single full Unit (Brigaded with the 48th or 47th Ga) at Tulifinny see above source. Also looking for info on Wappoo Cut. I agree with you on the STATE issue of the streamers, Made the point while I was there. But take a look at these source about our service. I do not want to keep adding on to the VMI page since it is not meant to take away from VMI, question your page, and or detract from the very important service during the war you all conducted. Can we continue on my/your talk page? V/R Drive 23 65.217.57.101!

Sure, we'll continue on the talk page. However, as I've explained earlier, there is a very defined difference between fighting as a unit in pitched combat as the VMI cadets did, and the fine service of various cadets and former cadets from your school. The journal of American History, U.S. Army Archives, Journal of American Military History, and many other sources document the validity of the facts as I've explained. Also, I'll pass more info between us on our talk pages.

Thanks, Marshall3 14:47, 8 April 2006 (UTC)