Category talk:Association football in Ireland

IFA and FAI international teams

 * (Following discussion moved from User talk: pages to facilitate contributions from other Wikipedians. jnestorius(talk) 01:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)).

Hi djln. I really don't like Category:Ireland national football team (FAI) or Category:Pre-1920 Ireland international footballers. I think before ploughing ahead you should stop adding to them and open a discussion at Talk:Ireland national football team (IFA), mentioning it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football, Irish Wikipedians' notice board and Northern Irish Wikipedians' notice board and await input from other Wikipedians. It's quite likely these categories will be nominated for deletion and you will end up having wasted your time. jnestorius(talk) 23:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Could you clarify exactly why you do not like these categories. Djln--Djln 12:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I copied your comment from my talkpage; it's easier to keep track of the dialogue when it's all in one place.

First, I presume Category:Ireland national football team (FAI) is a typo. It should be Category:Ireland national football team (IFA) or it's totally contrary to its contents. More generally, all the discussion at Talk:Ireland national football team (IFA) applies equally to the 2 categories. "Pre-1920 Ireland international footballers" is making the same over-precise distinction between pre-1920 and post-1920 as Ireland national football team (1882-1920) did, and there was consensus to change that.

I see Category:Northern Ireland international footballers is no longer a supercat of Category:Dual Irish international footballers. You seem anxious to minimize the idea that the NI team is the successor of the IFA Ireland team. The hierarchy you have created is missing two categories:
 * Category:Republic of Ireland footballers
 * Category:Northern Ireland international footballers
 * Category:Ireland national football team (IFA), with players on this team divided into
 * Category:Dual Irish international footballers -- post-1920 Southerners on the "IFA Ireland" team who were also on the FAI team
 * Category:Pre-1920 Ireland international footballers --pre-1920 Northern and Southerners on the "IFA Ireland" team
 * Category:Post-1920 Southerners on the "IFA Ireland" team who never played for the FAI team (there were some, though I don't have names to hand)
 * Category:Post-1920 Northerners on the " IFA FAI Ireland" team before 1950 when Southerners were excluded and it became the "Northern Ireland" team (corrected IFA→FAI jnestorius(talk) 01:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC))

You will also need to remove many articles from Category:Northern Ireland international footballers into the last 3 of the 4 preceding subcategories.

In any case, I view this as inappropriate use of categories. The story of the IFA/FAI split is convoluted and controversial. The current Ireland national football team (IFA), to which you have contributed, explains it quite well and NPOV. Categories are by their nature cruder and hence more prone to POV. Your attempt to avoid this will only multiply the number of subcategories to the point where it becomes confusing rather than enlightening.

My suggestion would be to just have with appropriate explanations at the top of each Category page; possibly with as the intersection of the two.
 * Category:Republic of Ireland footballers
 * Category:Northern Ireland international footballers
 * Category:Dual Irish international footballers

For more detail, there can also be lists. (See Categories, lists, and series boxes for a comparison of the merits of categories against lists.) I suggest:
 * List of IFA international players from outside Northern Ireland i.e. from the 26 counties (including those before 1920; this is prolepsis but that's not always unacceptable, as long as it's noted in the text. Republic of Ireland national football team encompasses Irish Free State national football team)
 * List of FAI international players from Northern Ireland (no prolepsis this time.) As well as those capped in the 30s and 40s, we could also discuss Alan Kernaghan and others.

jnestorius(talk) 17:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You are correct about the category title. It should have been IFA in title not FAI. This has been changed. However on other issues I disagree. A consensus was reached at Talk: Ireland national football team (IFA) that the Northern Ireland team did not exist until 1950. So how can you say that the players in Category:Dual Irish international footballers be referred to as Northern Ireland internationals ? Some may be described as Northern Irish footballers as opposed to Northern Irish internationals. None of the players in Category:Pre-1920 Ireland international footballers could be accurately described as either Northern Irish internationals or Republic internationals as neither state existed before 1920. The exception being if they played for either the IFA XI or the FAI XI after 1920. This should be done on an individual basis and not the category as a whole. This is the reasoning behind this category.  However they could be described as Northern Irish footballers or Republic of Ireland footballers due to their place of birth. My suggestion would be to have a super category called Category: Irish footballers containing all the categories we have discussed. Djln --Djln 00:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

First: thanks for changing to Category:Ireland national football team (IFA). Could you add to Category:Ireland national football team (FAI) to get it deleted? Thanks.

I agree Category: Irish footballers could be recommissioned as a new supercat, but we need Category: Irish international footballers underneath it; not all Irish footballers have caps.

Now:
 * No consensus was reached that the Northern Ireland team did not exist until 1950. The consensus was that, where people disagree, it is best not to come down firmly either way.  The title was changed, and a few sentences rephrased, to allow for that uncertainty.  If such a consensus did exist, why did you not add Category:Pre-1950 IFA Ireland international footballers?
 * The explication at Category:Northern Ireland international footballers states "This category contains past and present players of the Northern Ireland national football team and its predecessor the Ireland national football team (IFA)." That is how pre-1950 players can be said to play for "Northern Ireland", just as pre-1949 FAI players can be said to play for "Republic of Ireland" even though there was no Republic to play for.
 * The fact that the date when "Ireland" (IFA) became "Northern Ireland" is contentious is also the reason why a category for players who played for the team is ill-defined; anyone from 1920 to 1950, or even on to the 1970s, might be included; hence the 2 "missing" subcategories I listed above. That uncertainty is why having just 2 categories for players is my preferred solution, even though there are three articles for teams.  Lists are better than categories for gathering the relevant players together because you can explicitly add comments, hedges and caveats to the entries on a list, whereas an article is either in a category or not.  jnestorius(talk) 01:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Super Category Irish footballers
These would include all footballers born in these states/regions regardless of date and/or any footballer who represented them at international level.
 * I would suggest the following subcategories should be included in a super category of Category: Irish footballers. No individual players would be included the category at all.
 * Category: Republic of Ireland footballers
 * Category: Northern Irish footballers
 * Okay. There may be players in both categories, e.g. Alan Kernaghan again.  jnestorius(talk) 01:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

These would include only players from the above categories capped at international level after 1920. This would included players who played for Ireland national football team (IFA) before 1920. I don’t believe that any player who played solely for this team before 1920 could be realistically included in the above two categories. How can a player be described as an international of a country that did not exist at time of his playing ? This is just inaccurate and bad editing. Also if there are three teams, there should be three categories for each team and their players. However some players who played either side of 1920 could be included in this and the above categories. This would include any player who played for both the IFA XI and FAI XI as happened between 1920 and 1950. However if the IFA XI was representing the whole of Ireland until 1950, as some have suggested, then these players could not be accurately described as Northern Ireland international unless they played after 1950.
 * Category: Republic of Ireland international footballers
 * Category: Northern Ireland international footballers
 * Category: Pre-1920 Ireland international footballers
 * Category:Dual Irish international footballers
 * So what's the category for those who played for the IFA team between 1920 and 1950? Category: Northern Ireland international footballers or Category: Pre-1920 Ireland international footballers? jnestorius(talk) 01:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, the territory the IFA teams represented changed radically, i.e Ireland to Northern Ireland. That is why I favour the distinction between Pre-1920 Ireland and Northern Ireland internationals and why I started Ireland national football team (IFA).
 * The territory did change, but, as we discussed at Talk:Ireland national football team (IFA), it did not happen overnight in 1920. The FAI was not even founded till 1921.  The IFA accepted at the Liverpool conference in 1923 to restrict its club jurisdiction to Northern Ireland, but not its international team selection.  That was why the article was renamed from Ireland national football team (1882-1920).  If 1920 doesn't work for the article then it doesn't work for the category. jnestorius(talk) 01:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

In contrast the FAI territory has remained the 26 counties regardless of what the state was called.
 * Incorrect. The FAI asserted its right to all-island jurisdiction from 1921-3 and from 1936-50. jnestorius(talk) 01:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally they were declared a republic in 1937 and some would argue that a republic was declared in 1916. See Constitution of Ireland and Irish Republic. 1949 was when the Republic of Ireland left the British Commonwealth. This is why it is accurate to declare all players who played for the FAI XI as Republic of Ireland internationals.
 * Incorrect. The 1937 Constitution did not declare Ireland a republic; the 1949 Republic of Ireland Act did.  (See also Constitution of Ireland.) The 1919 Irish Republic was superceded in 1922 by the Irish Free State under the terms of the 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty.  While "some" disagreed with that, the FAI was duty-bound as a member of FIFA not to. jnestorius(talk) 01:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The inclusion of Republic of also helps distinguish these players from players in the other categories and avoids confusing readers not familiar with Irish history.
 * I completely agree. jnestorius(talk) 01:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Your second missing category makes no sense to me at all. However I think Billy Gillespie may be included in the first but I think he would be on his own. Djln --Djln 23:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Whoops, that was my turn to misprint. IFA should read FAI, hence Category:Post-1920 Northerners on the "FAI Ireland" team before 1950  This includes Jimmy Kelly and Dicky Lunn, capped by the FAI in 1938, as well as Billy McMillan, Jackie Vernon, Josiah Sloan and Jimmy McAlinden, capped in 1946.  All were from the 6 counties. jnestorius(talk) 01:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion
In principle, we could have:

Category:Irish footballers
 * Category: Ireland international footballers
 * Category: FAI international footballers
 * Category: Republic of Ireland international footballers only for post-1949 FAI players
 * Category: IFA international footballers
 * Category: Northern Ireland international footballers only for post-1950 IFA players

I think we are in agreement that "FAI international footballers" is unneccessary, i.e. we can use "Republic of Ireland international footballers" for players capped by the FAI prior to 1949, even though Ireland was not a Republic and the team was not described as such. On "IFA international footballers" there are two issues: jnestorius(talk) 01:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Having "Pre-1920 Ireland international footballers" instead of "IFA international footballers" avoids mentioning that there is any connection between the Pre-1920 team and the current NI team. I think that's misleading.
 * 2) Even if we change to the above categorization, we still have the problem of what cutoff date to use for "Northern Ireland international footballers". 1950 still seems a bit arbitrary to me.  However, I think it is the least-worst choice, as long as it's not mentioned in the Category name.

Further suggestion
The categories Category: Pre-1920 Ireland international footballers and Category: Dual Irish international footballers could also be included in Category: Northern Ireland international footballers, showing the IFA link, as well as the super category Category: Irish footballers. Referring to Pre-1920 players as Northern Ireland internationals is equally misleading as NI did exist before 1920. There needs to be a clear distinction. Djln--Djln 00:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The only difference I can see is that you're suggesting 1920 as the cutoff date and I'm suggesting 1950. I agree pre-1920 players didn't play for "Northern Ireland", but then neither did pre-1950 players, some of whom were not from Northern Ireland.  jnestorius(talk) 18:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)