Category talk:Israeli people by descent

Proposed guidelines
Discussion has been initiated on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Israel on proposed guidelines as to the use of one of the subcategories of this category vis-a-vis a subcategory of Category:Immigrants to Israel. Davshul (talk) 16:43, 22 December 2009 (UTC) - (updated Davshul (talk) 11:08, 3 February 2010 (UTC))


 * The following is the discussion of the guidelines (which took place on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Israel), which has now been archived. Davshul (talk) 11:08, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Categories: “[nationally] immigrants to Israel” vis-a-vis “Israelis of [nationality] descent”


 * There appears to be a lack of uniformity as to the use of these two seemingly overlapping groups of categories, namely: immigrants to Israel from a particular country (e.g. Category:Polish immigrants to Israel and Israeli people by ethnic or national origin (e.g. Category:Israelis of Polish descent. In many instances, articles on individuals appear in both groups with respect to the same country and elsewhere one or other of the categories appears to have been chosen almost at random.


 * I propose the following guidelines on the use of these categories (which appear to be generally consistent with the use elsewhere on Wikipedia, although I have not managed to locate any formal guidelines or previous discussion on the matter):


 * Use “Category:XXXXish immigrants to Israel” where the individual was born or lived for a material time in the country in question. (It is not relevant whether the immigration took place prior to or after the declaration of the State of Israel, provided the individual lived in Israel subsequent to the declaration.) I believe that this category should be used for each country concerned where the territory in question has passed from the ownership of one country to another or there has been some other change in sovereignty.
 * Use “Category:Israelis of XXXXish descent” where the individual did not live in the country in question but is descended from someone who did, or who had the relevent ethnic origin.


 * Examples:


 * (1) A person born of Polish parents in Germany in 1920 and who escaped to the UK in 1939 and immigrated to Israel in 1960, would be assigned the following categories Category:Israelis of Polish descent, Category:German immigrants to Israel and Category:British immigrants to Israel.


 * (2) A person born in Israel of Polish parents who immigrated to Mandate Palestine in 1935 would be assigned Category:Israelis of Polish descent.


 * (3) A person born in 1910 in Alsace (then in Germany but French following WWI) would be assigned Category:French immigrants to Israel and Category:German immigrants to Israel.


 * I am adding a link to this discussion on the discussion pages of the parent category for both groups.


 * Comments would be appreciated. Davshul (talk) 16:26, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with the above. However, I have reverted some of your recategorisation of Soviet Jews/immigrants to Israel, which you replaced with Ukrainian and/or Russian (e.g. Tzvi Tzur) - I don't believe you can claim anyone as a Ukrainian immigrant to Israel until after Ukraine was independent. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  16:42, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The whole question of the categorization of immigrants from the Soviet Union and its successor states is clearly complex and, I believe, should be dealt with as a separate discussion item in order that we can arrive at a consensus. It is for this reason that, in the examples given above, I deliberately did not include examples of territory annexed by the Soviet Union. Davshul (talk) 17:41, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Why don't we just do away with the “[nationally] immigrants to Israel” category? Seems rather pointless having two overlapping categories. The distinction isn't very important and "Israelis of XXXish origin" can contain both. Poliocretes (talk) 16:47, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe that the purpose of these proposed guidelines is to avoid the "overlapping". I too would like to do away with an unnecessary category. However, I am not sure that  "Israelis of XXXish origin" (or "descent", the actual name of the category) can cover both. In the example (1) give above, I do not believe "British" could be considered as the "origin" or the "descent". Davshul (talk) 17:41, 22 December 2009 (UTC)