Category talk:Kingdom of the Two Sicilies people

Territories.

Not the Kingdom of Naples
This is not the Kingdom of Naples, but a new state. Yes it somewhat incorporates the same area, but it is a new and distinct state.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:48, 13 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Kingdom of the Two sicilies as a Category is not placed under Kingdom of Naples for example. The 19th-century Neapolitans is referring to the Kingdom of Naples.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:52, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Not Italians, not Neapolitans
Many of these people would not have considered themselves Italians. Neapolitans we have been using as a term for those from the Kingdom of Naples. I personally think it is too ambiguous a term. If people here are in some way seen as Italians, we can put them in Italy categories as well. We should not however try to assume whole groups of people would fit under a particular label. It is less than clear that all residents of the island of Sicily would embrace Italian as a label. Treating them as a sub-set of Neapolitans makes even less sense. We do not need to nest every category into some Category that describes people with a demonym. For past independent political units with unclear or ambiguous units it is perfectly fine to call their subjects and nationals "People from x" and to leave it at that and to not try and place the people in a demonym. Demonyms are often used more to designate ethnicity that bring a subject of a specific kingdom. They are often ambiguous, but to group things in a category thry need to be an actual shared set, not just have a shared name.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:59, 13 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Sicilian nationalism gives an indication that there were large numbers of subjects of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies that did not see them as "Italian". If the subjects of the Kingdom could be considered Italian by nationality this might work, but in reality if we went that rate we would have to start calling the subjects of the Austrian Empire "German" because that was the language and culture of the ruling class, and in 1840 many in Vienna and Prague were convinced they were just as much in Germany doing German things as people in Naples and Taranta were in Italy doing Italian things. Because of there being an actual German Confederation and no Italian one, the people in Vienna and Prague in 1840 probably had a stronger case. It might not seem that way to us, if we let the lense of events after 1850 cloud our understanding. However we need to categorize based on present not passed events. If we have to choose Neapolitan or Italian for the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, Italian is probably better, but false diachotomies and forced choices are not always the way, and choosing neither is valid here. On the same not, if the Russian Empire ending in 1917 causes us yo not have 20th-century people from the Russian Empire categories, the Kingdom of Naples not existing after 1816 should probably cause us not to have the 19th-century Neapolitans Category. The confusion between Neapolian meaning city or country residents should probably cause us to rename all categories to using Kingdom of Naples, to make it clear they are for those from the Kingdom, not the city.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:13, 13 December 2023 (UTC)