Category talk:Lists of Jews

Question
Why is this category needed since it's all covered by Category:Jews ? IZAK 09:38, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * By now I have my answer, it seems that Wikipedians like "Lists"... IZAK 06:12, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I also question the nessecity to sort people of importance by religion and/or cultural background. Who needs this kind of profiling anyway? If somebody is interesting enough to merit a wiki page, what has hes/her religion to do with that?Kargoroth 04:19, 14 October 2007 (UTC)Kargoroth

Judaism is a religion, not a nationality
Jews are not a nationality. They are a religion. Why are Jews listed on List of nationalities? Why are Jews considered a nation when no other religion is given that status? --Islamist 15:04, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Because they're a nationality. Read Jew. Jayjg (talk) 22:55, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Judaism is a religion, Jews may be an ethnic group, but just because some Jews claim to see themselves as a nation doesn't make it true. Some people claim a sense of their own nationhood as Assyrians, Phoenicians, Minoans, Cretans, Kurds, Elbans, Corsicans, Sicilians, etc. Doesn't make them a nation either. I am deleting Jews as a nation. --Islamist 17:38, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My two cents: this discussion should be subordinated to the larger discussion of how strictly the term "nation" is used throughout wiki. See the discussions about China/PRC/ROC and Iraq/Turkey/Kurd and treatment of the EU as a nation. In some places, consensus is nation applies only to countries. In other cases, nation is used less strictly. Depending on how you choose to apply that here, either Jews and Palestinians both stay on the list of people by nationality, or neither of them stays. There is no Palestinian country, there is no Jewish country. There is only Israel as an operating nation. However, there is a much larger group of people who self-identify as either Jewish or Palestinian. So there's merit to both having a category under list of nations. Just please be consistent rather than ideological! Feco 17:53, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree. There is nothing consistent about having Lists of Jews categorized as a List of nationalities when no other religion is listed as a nationality. Jews are not special in that way and they shouldn't be allowed to impose their warped self-image on the rest of us in Wikipedia or the world at large. --Islamist 17:58, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Per consistency, will you also remove List of Palestinians from Category:Lists of people by nationality? My point above wasn't to stake out territory on either side of this argument... just to push for consistency. Feco 18:01, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Palestinians are a nationality (represented by the Palestinian Authority and recognized by the UN, just as Israelis are a nationality. Muslims are not a nationality just as Jews are not a nationality. It isn't that hard to comprehend. Religions are not nationalities despite what some religious nationalist bigots pretend. --Islamist 23:28, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Jews practice many different faiths, and Judaism is practiced by all sorts of different "races". Judaism and Jews are not the same thing. Jayjg (talk) 06:14, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Judaism and Jews: Both a religion/faith and a people/nation/ethnicity

 * (User:Islamist says that "there is no Jew nation just like there is no Christian nation, Muslim nation, or Hindu nation" and so feels obliged to de-categorize Category:Lists of Jews from Category:Lists of people by nationality and start a revert war about it to boot.) My response is that: Yes, Judaism is a religion, true, BUT, the Jews in the modern State of Israel and all those in the Jewish diaspora today are not just those who believe in the faith, and practice, the religion of Judaism, they are also historically considered to be the descendants of the Hebrew Biblical patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jacob was re-named "Israel" (see Genesis 32:29  and confirmed by God at Genesis 35:10 ), and from his (i.e Jacob=Israel) sons then come the Israelites who, eventually led by Moses, then receive the Ten Commandments and the Hebrew Bible outlining their beliefs and laws in the Written Law of the Torah (and later in history formalized within the Oral Law of the Talmud) and they then eventually establish the Kingdom of Israel, which was survived by the Kingdom of Judah, which continued as Judea, and even though it was destroyed by the Roman Empire, the Jews survived neverthless for two thousand years. Therefore, today's Jews continue as BOTH a nationality (or ethnicity or people) AND as followers of the Jewish religion, (i.e. the "ethnic" group of Jews -- today's "nationality" -- were believers in Judaism AT THE SAME TIME that they were also a Jewish PEOPLE. [Note, Judaism at the same time is not a religion that requires "exclusive ethnicity" because it does accept converts.]) This is unlike Christians, Moslems and Hindus who are PURELY members of a FAITH or religion alone and NOT an ethnic group or nationality at all, which does understandably seem to confuse many people, but if you look at the Timeline of Jewish history and look at the articles within the "Jew template" (See Template:Jews and Judaism sidebar, it should help to kick-start your Jewish education... be patient though...Jeruaslem was not built in a day...and if you have questions don't revert articles for the heck of it, you'd be better off asking and learning rather than acting out of frustration. IZAK 06:12, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * The religious mythology that leads some Jews to think of themselves as a nationality does not make it true. You will notice that every single nationality on this list is represented by a geographic area, usually a nation-state. The Jews are not represented by any geographic area because Judaism is a faith, a religion, practiced in many countries. Jews are not a race or nationality. They are a members of a religious group whose nationality is from many different countries as evidenced by Lists of Jews grouping Jews by the country of their nationality. Judaism itself is not a nationality. --Islamist 15:48, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oh come now Islamist, you have to be kidding! The land of the Jews is Israel as promised to them by God, see Genesis 15:18 "On that day, God made a covenant with Abram, saying, 'To your descendants I have given this land, from the Egyptian River as far as the great river, the Euphrates;..." , and Exodus 23:31 "I will set your borders from the Red Sea to the Philistine Sea, from the desert to the river. I will give the land's inhabitants into your hand, and you will drive them before you", then in Numbers 34:1-12 :"God spoke to Moses, telling him to '''give the Israelites instructions and say to them: When you come to the land of Canaan, this is the land within the borders of the land of Canaan that shall be your hereditary territory. Your southern sector shall begin in the Tzin Desert alongside Edom. The southern border to the east shall be the edge of the Dead Sea. The border shall then turn to pass to the south of the Akrabim Steps. It shall then pass toward Tzin with its southernmost point at Kadesh Barnea, and then extend to Chatzar Adar and reach as far as Atzmon. From Atzmon the border shall turn [north] and follow the Egyptian Wadi which shall be its far boundary to the west. The western boundary shall be the Mediterranean Sea and [its] shores. This shall be your western border. This shall be your northern boundary. From the Mediterranean Sea, draw a line to Hor Mountain. From Hor Mountain draw a line along the Chamath Highway, so that the extreme edge of the boundary is toward Tzedad. The border shall then extend through Zifron, with its extreme end at Chatzar Eynan. This shall be your northern border. For your eastern boundary, you shall draw a line from Chatzar Eynan to Shefam. The boundary shall then run southward from Shefam to Rivlah to the east of Eyin. Continuing to the south, the boundary shall run along the eastern shore of the Kinnereth Sea. The boundary shall then continue south along the Jordan, continuing until the Dead Sea.'''", and in Deuteronomy 11:23 "Every area upon which your feet tread shall belong to you. Your boundaries shall extend from the desert to the Lebanon, from a tributary of the Euphrates River as far as the Mediterranean Sea", and this NOT "mythology", this is the primary source par excellence the Hebrew Bible quoted. So, there have been times in history when Jews were in the land God promised them and outlined its boders in detail, and times when they have been exiled from it, but Israel, with its capital in Jerusalem has always been the Jewish people's/nation only true home...all the other countries they have found themselves in have only been "stops along the long road of the Jewish exile" from it. That's why Jews have always said and believed: "Next year in Jerusalem", see Jerusalem for more information. And please do not confuse the facts of a long history with "religious mythology" which is what some have called Islam, but not Judaism. IZAK 07:32, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * It's not religious mythology but millenia of shared history that make Jews, like all peoples, consider themselves a nationality, much like Kurds, Armenians, Druze, Parsis, etc. Jayjg (talk) 19:23, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * The Kurds and Armenians are not religions, they are geographiclly defined ethnic groups. The Druze and Parsis are religious groups and believers are citizens of Lebanon, or Iran etc. they do not make up their own nations. Instead of just making bald assertions or promoting false "facts" without evidence, why not contribute some knowledge and references? The concept of a Jewish nationality is one harbored only by Zionists (Jewish nationalists) and Nazis (who saw Jews as a separatenationality, not German citizens). See these links

 Israel's policy of recognizing Jewish nationality over Israeli nationality is a form of religious bigotry that should not be replicated in Wikipedia becuase Wikipedia is not an Israeli encyclopedia. "...Israel's registration law... classifies Israel's citizens as either of "Jewish nationality," or of "Arab nationality." Israel has no Israeli nationality. Citizenship and nationality are not equivalent in Israel. The fourth basic law is Israel's status law, which gives Israel's citizens with "Jewish nationality" certain rights and privileges which are denied to Israel's citizens with "Arab nationality." Several of these rights and privileges have been enumerated in this year's and in prior years' reports. Chief among these rights is the ownership or use of the very land which was expropriated from the Palestinians. It is these laws which compelled the UN in 1975 to describe Zionism as a "form of racism and racial discrimination" in view of the 1965 UN resolution 2106, which defined racism as "any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, color, descent or national or ethnic origin." The denial of citizenship to Palestinians reported by the State Department is based on descent and is thus patently racist. The Department of State does a grave disservice to "advanced Western democracies" by suggesting that Israel, with its legalized racist structure, can be favorably compared to them." --Islamist 04:03, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Please stop trying to turn Jewish ethnicity and Wikipedia into another Israeli-Palestinian battleground. Jayjg (talk) 04:05, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Please answer the question and stop trying to evade issues. --Islamist 04:08, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Jews are an ethnic group, like the other ones mentioned.  Moreover, ancient sources of Jewish thought, including the Talmud, Midrashim, Codes of Jewish law, medieval religious and philosophical works, all consider the Jews to be a nation; so too did the non-Jewish societied in which the Jews lived.  To claim that the concept of Jews as a nation is a Zionist invention is political revisionism, nothing more. Jayjg (talk) 15:00, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What? Is this an "Interrogation" Hahahahahahaha!!!! (Achtung !? hahahahahaha!!!!) Islamist does not realize that the Jewish people's history is much longer and more relevant than the short history of the modern State of Israel. Methinks, he's confused, poor chap! IZAK 07:41, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Jews are among groups who belong to both (or either) a religion and ethnicity/nationality. This has nothing to do with the State of Israel.  &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;Talk 04:30, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Speaking as a secular Jew, of course there is such a thing as&hellip; me. With most ethnicities that have an associated religion (e.g. Greeks and Greek Orthodoxy) or social code (Pashtuns and Pashtunwali), the vocabulary makes it a little easier to talk about this. It is easy to say "He is Greek, but not Greek Orthodox". In English, we use the same words (noun: Jew, adjective: Jewish) to talk about both Jewish ethnicity and Jewish religion (Judaism), so it is difficult to form a comparable sentence. We end up with circumlocutions like "secular Jew", "ethnically Jewish but not a practicing Jew", "ethnically Jewish but not a believing Jew", etc. My own usual explanation here in the U.S., which is clear in this nation of immigrants but might not be clear elsewhere, is "I'm Jewish in the sense that someone might be Irish, but not in the sense that they might be Catholic."

There is a distinct secular Jewish identity. Islamist, I don't know your background beyond what I can guess from your choice of user name. It is very possible that you may live in a country where secular Jewish culture does not exist. I come originally from New York, where, for the past century or more, it has been one of the most prominent cultures of a very multi-cultural city, more prominent than the (also important) religious Jewish culture. Just to take one topic on which I've done a lot of research: in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Yiddish theatre was generally opposed by most religious Jews (especially the Orthodox) but what could be more specifically Jewish, in the ethnic sense? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:40, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Very, very shaky criteria
I must admit: this list (and others of similar kind, too) is rather puzzling. I don't see the criteria for inclusion. For instance, V.I. Lenin is listed on the Russian Jews list (one grandparent)-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_Jews. Following the same line of thought, the list of, say, Germans or English, would swell to mammoth proportions: if one would to list just a few Americans of English descent (say, Abraham Lincoln or Robert E. Lee) on the list of English people-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_people, or Dwight Eisenhower & Chester Nimitz on the list of Germans- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germans -these (and others) wikipedia list pages would become undownloadable. Maybe Dante Alighieri should be listed as «German» or «Austrian» (Aliger is a «Teutonic» name)? So much for common sense.

I think that only people with some kind of Jewish identity should be listed (the Othodox Judaism criterion is especially weird when pushed to the limits of imagination- one could be termed "Jewish" if his grandmother's grand-grandmother was Jewish). In the current form this is, at least in part, a misinformation page. Who gives a hoot about some cloudy ancestor one actually doesn't care about ? Mir Harven 14:09, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Category:Jewish people
Can we merge this category into Category:Jewish people?--AI 4 July 2005 05:24 (UTC)
 * No. There is already a Category:Jews, which is a super-category of all these lists. Category:Jewish people was just a POV fork, which contained only one item, the Category:Jewish people by occupation, which in turn contained only one "occupation", Category:Jewish terrorists, which in turn contained only one individual, Baruch Goldstein. I'm sure your intentions were good when you created all these categories, but the whole thing was a giant POV exercise; "Jewish people" is a circumlocution for "Jews", Goldstein was a medical doctor, and "terrorist" categories are being removed from Wikipedia. Jayjg (talk) 4 July 2005 17:23 (UTC)

Rename
Unless notability and fame are self-explanatory, List of Jewish Nobel Prize Winners say, any list like these here requires "famous" or some other adjective. There is nothing inherently notable or encyclopedic about a list of Jews in the Military of Performing Arts. The list of Canadian Jews could, logically, have 300 000 names. Marskell 12:55, 9 October 2005 (UTC)