Category talk:Music video games

Music video game category
Can someone remove the Dance Dance Revolution games now that I added the DDR series as a subcategory? Thank you! --Yono (talk) 03:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Green tick.svg|15px]] Done. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 09:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

GH Redundancy
The "Guitar Hero" category is included twice. Once as a direct subdirectory and a second time as a subcategory of "Guitar music games". Isn't this redundant? -- TRTX T / C 17:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This is an interesting question for me right now. According to the common practice we've been using this is redundant but it is an exception to the general "no redundancy" rule. The reason for this is that in this rare case, this redundancy is required by both the User benefit and Secondary categorization rules. See below. -Thibbs (talk) 13:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Categorization and subcategorization
I've been working on a scheme to formalize the categorizations we've been using as common practice at Category:Music video games. I have gone through WP:CAT and WP:SUBCAT in detail and I think I have come up with a good solution. My proposed scheme can be found at my sandbox and I would welcome any and all comments here or at my talk page (here might be preferable in terms of transparency). Please contribute to this discussion so that we can gain community input on this decision. Thanks! -Thibbs (talk) 13:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Update: Having received some good feedback and seeing no further objections I have finalized the guidelines and am hereby moving them here. Further apropos I have decided that the background in their development might be of some use (however insignificant) to future editors, thus I am moving a brief version of this background into talk here as a subsection of this section. In order to ensure that users will be able to use the categorization guidelines in the decision-making process most readily, I have decided to place them at the top of the page and I will leave them unsigned. As this is a consensus decision, my individual role is insignificant, but by way of ensuring transparency I hereby sign them from a distance. -Thibbs (talk) 23:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Background of development
Currently Category:Music video games subcategories may be further subdivided into four rough groups: For Group 1 subcategories it has been common practice to include only the article on the series as a whole (the "series article") under Category:Music video games, and place all members of the series under the appropriate subcategory. I think this is a good practice as it reduces clutter while conforming to both the "Secondary categorization" and "Topic article" rules. The categorization guidelines serve as a consensus set of instructions that formalize what has been merely common practice and, further, they reduce the amount of monitoring required of concerned editors. For Group 2 and 3 subcategories, practices have varied and the categorization guidelines address categorization/subcategorization of these articles in a definitive manner. Group 4 subcategories are harder to lay rules for insofar as they represent disparate topics only united through catchall grouping. Nevertheless, the "Common sense rule" should always prevail and, when in doubt, general rules from the categorization guidelines should apply to articles found under these subcategories.
 * 1) Series/Franchise subcategories - (Bemani, Guitar Hero, High School Musical, and In the Groove)
 * 2) Gameplay subcategories - (Dance, Drumming, Guitar, and Karaoke)
 * 3) WikiEdit subcategories - (Category:Music video game stubs)
 * 4) Other -  (Category:Music video game soundtracks and Category:Music generated games)

Notes:
 * Ideally, all large series of music video games should have both a series article and a subcategory under Category:Music video games. If series reach more than 5 members, all of their members should not be listed under Category:Music video games. In such cases editors should create appropriate series articles and subcategories and transfer the members of the large series to their appropriate subcategory (remembering to duplicate the series article).
 * The categorization of series articles for music game series under a music game metaseries is intended to comport with the "User benefit rule."
 * Pursuant to these limitations, all members of Category:Music video game stubs should also be listed under Category:Music video games because this "WikiEdit subcategory" is only intended to function as an editorial/WikiProject aid and as such it forms a "related categor[y] ... not actually part of the same hierarchy" that "only subdivide[s] [its] parent category" in violation of the "Secondary categorization rule"
 * Similarly, all group 2 subcategory members should also be listed under Category:Music video games pursuant to the above limitations to comport with the "Secondary categorization rule."
 * Currently most group 4 subcategory members should also be listed under Category:Music video games pursuant to the above limitations to comport with the "Common sense rule"

Applying the "Diffusing large categories" principle
Hi, I was going to remove the double-redundancy related to Category:Music video games when I saw that this redundancy is so intended. This category is growing too large and the "Diffusing large categories" principle should be applied. In my opinion the user doesn't get any benefit if an article is tagged both as "Music video games" and as "Dance video games". Moreover, it gets more complicated to know which articles are tagged as "Music video games" and NOT as "Dance video games". --Micru (talk) 16:21, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Technically neither term subsumes the other. Not all music games involve dancing and some dance-related games don't involve meaningful connections to music. There are a few video games that include dance pads but where the dance pad isn't used for input to the game. For these games the players are supposed to dance but the music is not a necessary part of the game. These games are pretty uncommon obviously and practically speaking the vast majority of dance games are music video games. In fact to be more specific the vast majority of dance games are rhythm games. So I see that you have a point from a practical perspective. If you think the "Categorization Guidelines" (above) should be changed to comport more with the "Diffusing large categories" principle then I don't see it as a huge problem. Feel free to make an appropriate change. -Thibbs (talk) 18:45, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the fast answer. The guidelines you developed are appropriate, the only thing is that we should try to move all the articles one level up for the sake of usability. In my edition I tried to reflect this, hopefully it is not geting too complicated... I agree with you that most dance video games are rythm games, however we should try to find a middle ground between the "accurate definition" and what the users expect to find, which, at the end of the day, is what defines the genre. There will be exceptions, but I expect them to be as few as possible and we could leave them in the parent category Category:Music video games. --Micru (talk) 09:29, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

New categories
I have created the following new categories: What do you think? Do you have any suggestions? I'm also thinking of a new category (Category:Video games with music as plot-relevant) to include games like Eternal Sonata, Amadeus Revenge and similars. Would that be too much? --Micru (talk) 12:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Category:Hand-controlled rhythm games to include rhythm games that are not related to the other categories (dance, music instruments, etc)
 * Category:Four-panel dance video games for dancing games with dancing pad mode
 * Category:Hand-controlled dance video games for dancing games with hand-controller mode
 * Category:Puzzle-music video games for this cross-genere. However, if there are not enough I'll delete the category and will leave them in the parent category.
 * Category:Music creation video games
 * Interesting new ideas. The "Hand-controlled rhythm games" and "Hand-controlled dance video games" might be rather redundant as most dance games are rhythm games too. Also most games that have dance pads (like DDR for example) also allow for hand-control with either specialized controllers like this or with a normal gamepad. So the line might be kind of hard to draw here. For "Puzzle-music video games" a definition is definitely needed since all music games have been classified as puzzle games back in the early days of the genre when "music games" were not recognized as a distinct genre. Also I think "Music creation video games" would really benefit from a definition. (I notice, for example, that you placed all of Category:Turntable video games‎ within "Music creation video games". Without a definition for "Music creation video games" I'm not sure that's accurate. The Beatmania games, for example, are traditional rhythm games with only a turntable-shaped controller. I can't see how they would be much different from games like DDR, Pump It Up, or Bust a Groove) You might be interested in this similar-sounding category: Category:Music generated games. As for "Video games with music as plot-relevant" I think this category might suffer from over-breadth. In many traditional rhythm games, the frame-story plot is about a group of young people who have to participate in a number of dancing competitions or performances. The songs, then, could easily be considered part of the plot. I do like the idea of somehow creating a category for games like Eternal Sonata, and Amadeus Revenge, etc. Perhaps this would work but the definition would have to be crafted appropriately. In general my advice is to add definitions/descriptions to all the categories per WP:CAT. Good luck. -Thibbs (talk) 14:54, 20 July 2010 (UTC)