Category talk:New Zealand Crown Copyright images

FYI Rebelguys2 appears to be listing all NZ crown Copyright images for deletion. Sample very lengthy discussion, illustrating his/her reasoning is underneath - other similar arguments on the deletions page. See also Copyrights - I think a New Zealand section should be added. Winstonwolfe 06:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Image:Ct4e.jpg

 * Image:Ct4e.jpg [ delete] talk [ history] [ logs] - uploaded by Winstonwolfe ( [ notify] | contribs).

Request for explanation placed on users page. this image is Crown Copyright - users beef against crown copyright seems rather hypothetical - many crown copyright images have been on wikipedia for a long period of time with no issue arising - it is difficult for me to concieve of any use of the image that would breach crown copyright without also breaching Wikipedia policy. In this template, it is stated the image is non free use, and you are then directed to a non free use template. The non-free use requirements really don't fit the compliance with crown copyright requirements, and I suggest application of them is inappropriate. Someone should sit down and produce a Crown Copyright version. In the mean time, failure to fit neatly in non free use template boxes - or even fill the silly thing in - should be no reason to delete an image. In the unlikley event there is a real rather than obscure theoritical conflict with Wikipedia policy, I suggest the most practical solution is to keep the crown copyright images and rewrite the policy. Wikipedia policy is not graven stone, it is all to often not even vaguely sensible, and given how prevelant Crown Copyright images have become on wikipedia, citing policy is not trump card - realistically few users were involved in drafting policy and they don't seem to have any knowledge of or consideration for New Zealand intellectual property law. Winstonwolfe 05:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Copyright violation. No valid license - only a non-free license is provided. &mdash; Rebelguys2 talk 21:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Crown Copyright allows images to be reproduced free of charge in any format or medium provided it is reproduced accurately and not used in a misleading context.
 * Wikipedia considers images non-free if they do not allow &mdash; unencumbered, save for history and attribution &mdash; redistribution and reproduction, derivative works, and redistribution and reproduction of those derivative works.
 * Since these images must be "reproduced accurately," we can't make derivative works. Since we can't use them in a "misleading context," we have restrictions on redistribution and reproduction. We can't rewrite these facts, and I don't see what kind of a policy change you're looking for.
 * There are barely any New Zealand Crown Copyright images on Wikipedia at the moment, anyway &mdash; 135 last time I looked. The only reason a lot of them are still here is because of the literally tens upon tens of thousands of problematic images &mdash; it takes time to get to them all. &mdash; Rebelguys2 talk 06:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I also see you've stuck a fair use rationale on the page. There's not much of a fair use argument to keep this image, considering there's a free image of the plane just a bit further down the page. &mdash; Rebelguys2 talk 06:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your rapid response. Regarding fair use, if you read what was said on the page, you'll see I readily acknowledge theere is nothing special about the image at all, (in fact, I have a photo of one of these planes I took myself which I could scan and release to replace this one without any IP issues). That is not the point. I think talking about fair use template is inappropriate in the context of Crown Copyright. Not least because in my understanding 'fair use' as defined at wp:fair use is no defence under New Zealand law, so saying "fair use" will get Wikipedia or ISPs nowhere if they do fall foul of the New Zealand courts. Asking for it may create a false illusion of security if the use is "fair".

To me, the issues, are, as you rightly identify, the requirements of

1. acknowledgement of copyright,

2. derivative use, and

3. misleading context. I would also add

4. derogatory use.

I think these four requirements are entirely reasonable and I think Wikipedia should live with them, rather than losing a large number of images.

In the context of images relating to New Zealand, I think 135 is a very large number - and I am guessing that figure is only those crown copyright images which used the crown copyright template. If, to those from larger nations, 135 seems a small number, it may be worth checking whether similar similar issues apply to, for example, UK crown copyright?

Now, looking at the second issue you raised, is the derivative use and misleading context restriction a serious issue, or blind following of policy, because it is policy?

Derivative use would be things like making it part of a montage, and claiming copyright of that montage as a new work of art. It seems reasonable for any user contemplating derivative use to look at the image page, where the crown copyright limitation is clearly noted, and they will then know they have to ask permission - if they go ahead and break copyright, that is their action, and not Wikipedias problem, because Wikipedia displayed the copyright - and that is all that was required.

Similarly, any user who uses the image in a misleading context "this is a Cessna 172 of the Bolivian airforce" will be quickly corrected by fellow Wikipedians, and seriously the New Zealand Government is NOT going to have a go at Wikipedia at some breif error.

I really think this is a non-issue and it will be a great pity to loose a large number of new Zealand images - let alone other jurisdictions government copyright - because of pedantic adherence to a policy that seems, at least to me, unnecessary. Winstonwolfe 06:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Could we merge discussions? I'm making approximately the same argument below. (I originally started this argument on this image, but then noted that on the original page it explicitly says (c) Royal New Zealand Air Force. I'd rather not get sidetracked on whether this makes the image "identified as being the copyright of a third party" in the terminology.) Gimmetrow 06:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Seems to be an identical issue. Winstonwolfe 06:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * But Wikipedias issues are (1) reproduction and redistribution, (2) derivative works, and (3) reproduction and redistribution of those derivative works. Adherence to these guidelines is good and important, as it means that everything we have on Wikipedia, save for limited instances of legimitate fair use, is free. Third parties can modify our content, use it commercially, rip it apart, put it back together, what have you &mdash; we want to permit any manner of reproduction, redistribution, and modification. See WP:5P and WP:C. I'm headed off to bed soon, so I won't be responding for a while. &mdash; Rebelguys2' talk 07:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

That's okay...no rush, I'm working this weekend so won't have much to say for a while either...

Not just Kiwis

I have had a chance to check UK crown copyright - there are at least 288 UK crown copyright images uploaded, all subject to a no misleading context clause identical to the New Zealand one you object to - and a bunch of other restrictions. Before we start this snowball rolling, I think we need UK users should be brought into this debate, and a search made for other similar jurisdictions images, (the other commonwealth nations spring to mind for starters).

Reproduction and Redistribution

I guess from my end, I see the main aim is being an encylopedia, rather than as a store of free images for commercial use. So I think it is better to have images with reasonable minor limitations - like fair use and crown copyright - than not have those images. I think commercial users can reasonably be expected to to read the template beneath the image they are down loading. But whether they do or not, it does not matter to Wikipedia, for Wikipedia is not liable, because it acknowledged crown copyright. Because there is no liability on Wikipedia, and the template provides fair warning to others, I don't see how reproduction and redistribution are a problem. This is not a napster situation. Users who reproduce the image with notice of copyright do nothing wrong, users who do not acknowledge the copyright bring no blame on Wikipedia - by having acknowledgement of the crown copyright with the stored image - which the template does - Wikipedia absolves itsef from liability.

Policy already compromised for US, why not for other nations?

I think the limitations already round fair use have set the precedent - allowing US law fair use exception (which is no protection in some other jurisdictions) but not NZ crown copyright - or UK - seems just picking up one cultures exception and ignoring other nations. If an exception can be made for fair use, it can be made for other, reasonable and similar reasons. incidentally I am worried about the damger of thinking that "free use" justifies publication in any jurisdiction - it is not the law everywhere. Winstonwolfe 07:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)