Category talk:Spanish and Portuguese Jews

Sub-categorization
I actually agree with the anon. You can't just pick a few random places in the world and make Category:Spanish and Portuguese Jews a subcategory of them.--Pharos 06:40, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm with Pharos here. As a rule, subcategorization is an is-a relationship. For example, one might have (I'm not suggesting this would be useful, just illustrating) Category:Spanish and Portuguese Jews in Amsterdam that inherited from both Category:Spanish and Portuguese Jews and Category:Amsterdam, but Category:Spanish and Portuguese Jews shouldn't inherit from Category:Amsterdam. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:48, July 19, 2005 (UTC)


 * The Spanish and Portuguese Jews are in fact defined by the locations of Amsterdam and London from the get-go. Also, I fail to see how categorising this category only as a sub-set of Category:Sephardi Jews can make any sense...! What happened with the categorising by components (e.g. (simplified): Dutch musicians < Dutch & musicians; Mizrachim < Jews & Middle East). What you are suggesting is to fail to categorise this group by any location. -- Olve 07:27, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * This group is not specified to a location, except Spain and Portugal; that's the whole point of a "diaspora". Spanish and Portuguese Jews are emphatically not defined by just London and Amsterdam.--Pharos 07:33, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * If so, why is it that the many of the main Spanish and Portuguese synagogues, including the ones in London, Willemstad and the Neveh Shalom in Spanish Town in Jamaica, are/were modelled specifically after the Amsterdam Esnoga &mdash; the mother community...? And why is it that the hakhamim were traditionally almost all educated in Amsterdam? -- Olve 07:40, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * You're attaching entirely undue importance to Amsterdam and London. You quite forget that most of the Sephardi diaspora went to the North Africa, the Middle East, and Southeastern Europe.--Pharos 07:44, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * OK Pharos &mdash; you are misunderstanding the main point here: Spanish and Portuguese Jews is not synonymous with Sephardi Jews, but a specific term for that particular and distinctive sub-group of Iberian Sephardi Jews who formed communities in Western Europe and the (pre-modern) Americas, primarily in Amsterdam and London. I recognise 100% that Amsterdam and London are of minor importance to Sephardim as a whole &mdash; including the Sephardi settlements in Gibraltar,in cities like Casablanca, in the Balkans/Turkey, in the Middle East, etc. But that is irrelevant here. -- Olve 07:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Explain how "Spanish and Portuguese Jews" does not mean Jews from Spain and Portugal. Do you have a source for this?--Pharos 07:59, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * It is a well-established term with tons of sources. A couple examples for now:
 * Dobrinsky: A treasury of Sephardic laws and customs : the ritual practices of Syrian, Moroccan, Judeo-Spanish and Spanish and Portuguese Jews of North America. Revised edition. Hoboken, N.J. : KTAV, 1988 ISBN0881250317
 * http://www.jewish-music.huji.ac.il/projects2.html
 * -- Olve 08:08, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Even if a few people use "Spanish and Portuguese Jews" in this very specific way, it would be extremely troublesome to categorize anything under such an ambiguous title. May I instead suggest "Western Sephardi", an unambiguous term used on the very page you directed me to.--Pharos 08:20, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * It is a mainstream academic term (try searching on “Spanish and Portuguese Jews” in the Jewish Encyclopedia) and the primary term used by the community in question. «Western Sephardim», on the other hand, is academically ambiguous, as it can include some or all of the Jews of the Maghreb &mdash; where certain groups share some, but not all, religious and cultural elements with the Spanish and Portuguese Jews. -- Olve 08:39, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Olve I must interject! You are putting "the cart before the horse" as it were. Do not confuse the fact that Jews from Spain and Portugal settled in other places later, but that those other places do not define them "retroactively" because it was firstly by their long histories and culture in Spain and Portugal which first and foremost defines their identity. You are also putting far too much emphasis on "synagogues" which do not count for much in terms of what Judaism is about in the long run. Judaism is defined by the degree to which Jews observed most of the 613 mitzvot of the Torah and studied the Talmud whereas "synagogues" are just a minor detail (just a "utilitarian" place in a sense) of the total life-style/s of the Jews of Spain and Portugal or anywhere else, as in all of Jewish history. Calm down. IZAK 08:13, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Izak: Please feel free to correct me when I am wrong. And, being a human, I am wrong plenty of times. But in this particular case, I happen to have done extensive research on the topic in question.
 * As for synagogues, these are of course (as both you and I know) just an example. An example, however, that in connection with this particular group is of (maybe uncharacteristically for Jews as a whole) particularly high importance. Other examples include many major characteristics of the ritual, including the non-inclusion of any Psalms before Psalm 29 in the Friday night service. There is a distinctive tradition of ta‘amim, there is a very distinctive tradition of Hebrew pronunciation, etc.
 * Having worked with primary and secondary sources to this tradition, I share the non-controversial notion found amongst, e.g., scholars like Edwin Seroussi, that the traditions and identity of the Spanish and Portuguese Jews are very tightly and characteristically interlinked with the general trends of intellectual and commercial Western Europe of the 1600s and 1700s. The former conversos’ reconstruction of their Sephardi roots in a general Western European intellectual setting within their newly-formed communities is so much a fundamental element that the cart actually, for once, belongs before the horse! :-) Olve 08:30, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Kanter: “High Holy Day melodies [...]”
“The many ex-Marrano communities which were established in Western Europe and the Americas after 1600 owe most of their customs and traditions to the parent community at Amsterdam. Records show that the early prayer books were shared by all, religious leaders and teachers were exchanged, and there was continuous contact between the Dutch community and its most far-flung branch. As each new congregation was formed, the older ‘siblings’ would contribute monies and religious articles necessary to the ritual and aesthetic needs of the community.” (Maxine Ribstein Kanter: “High Holy Day hymn melodies in the Spanish and Portuguese synagogues of London,” in Journal of Synagogue Music X (1980), No. 2, pp. 12–44) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Olve Utne (talk • contribs)