Category talk:St'at'imc

Rename
This category is a pain in the you-know-what; every time you want to add it you have to go to a page with the diacritical spelling on it, copy that and go back to the other page. �English does not have these diaccriticalss and IMO the use of them in catnames is entirely inappropriate - this goes for the Nuxalk, Sto:lo and similar categories as well. In this particular case the main article does NOT use the accent on the /a/ and also the apostrophe after the t's is the regular English apostrophe, not the special one used in St'at'imcets. The /t'/ formation, though now widely used in BC English because of p.c.-ism in the media, does not mean what it means in any other FN language, i.e. it means /tl/ which in other languages is either /lh/ or /ll/ (when not /tl/ or /kl/). Ironically the "incorrect" spellign denounced by latter-day politically-minded ilinguiosts as a "white mistake" is "Statliumh" which of all transliterations comes to hte closet to how this name is pronounced; "Stl'atl'imx" came close but is now used mostly by the Stl'atl'imx Tribal Police and certain other bodies. The compromise here is to allow the /t'/ special character instead of the as-pronounced /tl/ but without the special apostrophe and without the acdent on the /a/. Neither are appropriate in English, and both are a pain in the butt to have to use when adding categories to pages.Skookum1 (talk) 16:44, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What do the sources use when discussing st'at'imc? DigitalC (talk) 23:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * In the wake of the re-change back to the non-diacritical form of the article title - although I note again that the /t'/ is ot actually an English character though it has become the press standard of late, as with un-diacriticalized Sto:lo and Skwxwu7mesh (also with non-English characters) - I went through and harmonized the usages in the refs to what the link used; in some cases the fully diacritical form had been put on links which did not use it. It's easier to just quote the listings here for interpolary comments/discussion, though also note that not all the apostrophes on the t's that you see are the same:

There's other materials on the web, including some individual band sites; anything that's USCLES related will most likely use the full-diacritical form, i.e. the spelling in St'at'imcets; but we don't use Russian characters when wreiting in English, either, y'see (as also pointed out on Skwxwu7mesh long ago by someone else). I think the Stl'atl'imx Tribal Police have a webpage, and the Lower Stl'atl'imx Health Authority or some such agency exists in mt Currie; an arbiter might be what the local media usages are, i.e. the Pemberton, Lillooet, Whistler and Squamish papers; Hydro, which publishes St'at'imc-related material, also has online resources but I can't remember their spelling; any government agency is going to reflect at least some degree of teh diacriticalized form, at least the accent-a but probably not the special t-apostrophe (in some sources it's an over-apostrophe, i.e. right on top of the /t/). The big media I'm pretty sure use only St'at'imc, and when it was fashionable they used Stl'atl'imx, after "Lillooet" became no longer media-correct except in ref to the tribal council and, by linguists, for the language (other than Van Eijk et al. who use ucwalmicsts, usually with the accent on the i), same as Thompson language and similar remain the norm and are used for those articles. "Most common usage" in this case might well be "Lillooet", which is somewhat politically incorrect. I'll look around for further cites on the other pages and elsewhere on the web.Skookum1 (talk) 02:43, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Bibliography of Materials on the Lillooet Language (YDLI)
 * The Lillooet Language (YDLI)
 * St'at'imcets - The Lillooet Language
 * The Sťáťimcets Language (Native Language, Font, & Keyboard)
 * This site, languagegeek, is copying/sourcing the usage given by the USCLES.Skookum1 (talk)
 * Joseph, Marie. (1979). Cuystwí malh Ucwalmícwts: Ucwalmícwts curriculum for beginners. Mount Currie, B.C.: Ts’zil Publishing House. ISBN.
 * Ucwalmicwts - roughly "the people's language" or "the nation's language" is the actual preferred name of the language, one reason being that St'at'imc is actually originally Lillooet-oriented - rather than Lil'wat-oriented, and the language area also includes the In-SHUCK-ch; so I gather Ucwalmicwts is a "neutral" term for the linguistic collective that's not place-oriented; still, St'at'imc and Stl'atl'imx are used in Mount Currie; name cites in that region on BCGNIS when they occur use "Ucwalmicwts".Skookum1 (talk)
 * Larochell, Martina; van Eijk, Jan P.; & Williams, Lorna. (1981). Cuystwí malh Ucwalmícwts: Lillooet legends and stories. Mount Currie, B.C.: Ts’zil Publishing House. ISBN.
 * ditto.Skookum1 (talk)
 * Smith, Trefor. Our Stories Are Written on the Land A Brief History of the Upper St'át'imc 1800-1940. Lillooet, BC: Upper St'át'imc Language, Culture and Education Society, 1998. ISBN 1896719082
 * Note that this is not the diacritical special-character t-apostrophe.
 * van Eijk, Jan P. (1991). Cuystwí malh Ucwalmícwts: Teach yourself Lillooet: Ucwalmícwts curriculum for advanced learners. Mount Currie, B.C.: Ts’zil Publishing House. ISBN.
 * See above.Skookum1 (talk)
 * van Eijk, Jan P. (1997). The Lillooet language: Phonology, morphology, syntax. Vancouver: UBC Press. ISBN.
 * Williams, Lorna; van Eijk, Jan P.; & Turner, Gordon. (1979). Cuystwí malh Ucwalmícwts: Ucwalmícwts curriculum for intermediates. Mount Currie, B.C.: Ts’zil Publishing House. ISBN.
 * Likewise.Skookum1 (talk)
 * I've already mentioned it but here's the Stl'atl'imx Tribal Police site. I'll see what the In-SHUCK-ch and N'quatqua bands use, also, and I think Pavilion might use St'at'imc but their near-primary linguistic orientation, as I understand it, is Secwepemctsin so their spelling might be influenced by that.  The pan-regional tribal council of which N'quatqua and In-SHUCK-ch are no longer part are primarily known still as the Lillooet Tribal Council, which is interchangeable with St'at'imc Nation, and while the undiacriticalized form appears in English media when used, it's a safe bet that they use it on their letterhead and website, the diacriticalized form that is; the USCLES is not part of them, though, as I understand it, and there are different factions still as the police usage of Stl'atl'imx indicates.Skookum1 (talk) 02:54, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, got a quick answer to N'quatqua and In-SHUCK-ch - there's a Lower Stl'atl'imx Tribal Council...come to think of it the Douglas band uses Xa'xtsa instead of what would be Ca'ctsa if it was in Upper St'at'imc - "the Fountain dialect" as the linguistic standard is known. I'm confused now though; there's still the In-SHUCK-ch organization, which I thought was a tribal council; but it appears there may be two overlapping ones with the three members of the one also members of the four-council second one; confusing....it's similar to the Canyon and Lytton, with the two main Canyon Nlaka'pamux organizations not including Lytton, which is on its own, the way Mount Currie/Lil'wat is within the Lower Lillooet region; the difference with the Fraser bands, in terms of political geography, is that the "rural' reserves are populous, which the Lower Lillooet rural reserves aren't, and there's also three "town reserves" at Lillooet, not one; so more balancing of forces I guess not creating the polarity or rather the rationale for the smaller Lower Lillooet bands to have split off, i.e. better access to funding and more control over their own decisions....If only localities within Electoral Areas could pull the same with Regional Districts huh?  Anyway...there's more out there; Safe to say that the big media go with the "Fraser dialect" or "Fountain dialect" version, but without the diacriticals, and academics and band/agency -related publications, including treaty resources, from that area, are likely to use the diacritical spelling; and in the Lower Lillooet they still use the -imx form, or even just Ucwalmicw, to refer to the ethnic whole (i.e. when irrespective of band, as with Ucwalmicwts).Skookum1 (talk) 03:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

This is followed by Chapter 6, "Stl'atl'imx (Fraser River Lillooet) Fishing," by Dorothy Kennedy and Randy Bouchard. They set out to describe Stl'atl'imx ... A search of google news for St'at'imc turns up 24 hits, while stl'atl'imx turns up 14. Some of the 24 used diacriticals (St'át'imc). When we look at what is most commonly used, I again feel it will be St'at'imc, without diacriticals (such as in this Guardian (UK) piece by Naomi Klien). On the other hand, the St'át'imc themselves use St'át'imc on their website, which is in english. I don't see this one quite as clearcut as Sto:lo, because it doesn't seem to be used as much in the media (that is, the St'át'imc doesn't get as much media as Sto:lo). I would be fine with either, but perhaps a clear case could be presented to WP:3 to see if we can get a third editor opinion as to what would be best? - DigitalC (talk) 03:36, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Southern Stl'atl'imx Health Authority website, as espected.Skookum1 (talk)
 * The link doesn't work as the author has withdrawn permission for its diaplay but a google brings up:
 * A Complex Culture of the British Columbia Plateau: Traditional Stl'atl'imx Society...
 * I had that book, which is a main source on the Upper Stl'atl'imx as spelled then; since then SFU's Brian Hayden probably uses the diacriticalized Fountain-dialect form, i.e. he's updated; maybe not I'll look at his Keatley Creek materials, much of which is online (and needs an article big-time).Skookum1 (talk) 03:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * SFU turns out to fairly consistently use Stl'atl'imx, including in published materials on ethnography and archaeology...there's interesting hits on the second and third pages of a google for Stl'atl'imx, which turns up 3,220 hits; whereas "St'at'imc" turns up 11,200 or so, but that's including wiki-clones; I'll check "St'át'imc" next, though it's likely less hits....8,390 hits, again possibly with wiki-clones because some may not have updated since the name-change.Skookum1 (talk) 03:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "Sťáťimc" gets 2,000-some-odd hits, and it seems google reads that, with the special apostrophe, as "Statimc", which does turn up around the net as it turns out.Skookum1 (talk) 03:21, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Update one year later - google news for St'at'imc gets 42, stl'atl'imx gets 29. To me this shows there isn't a clear cut version that is preferred by sources. However, for a plain google search, st'at'imc gets about 3x as many hits. As for the diacriticals, the most reliable news source I found was the globe & mail, which did not use the diacriticals. The lilooet bridge news used diacriticals in one article I read, and did not in 2 others. From what I can tell, coverage in the Toronto Star also did not use the diacriticals. I agree with Skookum1 that this category should be renamed, without the diacriticals. DigitalC (talk) 03:09, 26 November 2009 (UTC)