Category talk:State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry

Category history and definition
This category was rapidly changed over from 'New York State College of Forestry'. In its present form, it includes subcategories from both the New York State College of Forestry at Cornell and the New York State College of Forestry at Syracuse University; the former are inappropriate in this new form.DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 03:23, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * They are different schools and should be named differently, I agree but do think Syracuse should retain this "new" naming format rather than the old format. Cornell is not even forestry I don't think, it's Health and Safety?Nconwaymicelli (talk) 08:52, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Cornell is a defunct forestry college (closed 1904). Still it should not be lumped under Syracuse ESF. Be bold and remove that category from the Cornell page! Nconwaymicelli (talk) 08:52, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. There are two (or three) temporal aspects to this: (i) NY State College of Forestry at Cornell; (ii) NY State College of Forestry at Syracuse University; and (iii) SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry (SUNY-ESF). The current category is useful for the third aspect, and arguably the second, but not the first. See History of the New York State College of Forestry. The NY State College of Forestry (at Cornell) was the first 4-year college of forestry in the country. SUNY-ESF just had it's centenary (founded 1911). Yet from an historical perspective these institutions are interrelated. The legacy continues at Cornell, with Fernow Hall, the Department of Natural Resources, and Cornell Extension, including in the forestry area. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 13:55, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If you would like me to be bold and change it, I have no problem with that! I think the NY State College of Forestry at Syracuse and SUNY College of ESF should stay in this category but I can make a new category for the defunct Cornell. I haven't checked yet if there is a "defunct" category for all of SUNY, it may fit there if so. Let me know. Nconwaymicelli (talk) 07:01, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I forgot to mention, if you think a new category for all forestry is appropriate, that's no problem creating that either. You could have each of the colleges in their appropriate category and have a sub-category they all fall into additionally (for example isn't there an Andirondack forestry too? It could also point there. Nconwaymicelli (talk) 07:01, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your further thoughts. I think it would be helpful to have two categories: an all-inclusive 'super'-category (e.g. New York State College of Forestry) that could incorporate both historical and more contemporary entries; and a unique category for the present-day SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry. Kind regards, DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 21:38, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, it's making sense now! The category is all inclusive for SUNY forestry education but the name was recently changed from New York State College of Forestry to current name (which as we know is an individual school). I went ahead and requested a name change on the speedy rename page at Categories for discussion/Speedy to State University of New York - Environmental Science and Forestry education. That should be more straightforward than the old cat name. Not sure how long this will take. Nconwaymicelli (talk) 05:42, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Getting closer... The State University of New York system was not established until 1948. The New York State College of Forestry was at Cornell University from 1898-1903; and at Syracuse University from 1911. Forestry education in New York state thus commenced in 1898, half a century before SUNY was formed. Other institutions followed the New York State College(s) of Forestry: the New York State Ranger School (est. 1912, now part of SUNY-ESF), forestry education at Paul Smiths College, etc. So the historically accurate broader category would be Forestry education in New York state, not SUNY forestry education. Two other pieces of this larger puzzle are: land grant colleges (only one, Cornell, in New York state); and US Forest Service Cooperative Extension units in New York (which includes an urban forestry unit located at SUNY-ESF).DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 20:14, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Let me make an alternate suggestion. Unfortunately, it involves some time and effort (no 'speedy' solution to address the 'speedy' mess). I would propose recreating the 'New York State College of Forestry' category and 'moving' those items currently erroneously in the 'SUNY-ESF' category to the former. The current category could continue as intended by whomever made the change in the first place. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 13:01, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I see what you are saying. I am not sure what the issue with the "speedy" rename is and why they are resisting? You are right, recreating the category and starting over seems like the best way to get around the problem because seem to be too many admins out here, and none willing to help. Let me know the exact name you are thinking and I will get that done (because I can add categories very easily, just not update them I guess, crazy!) Nconwaymicelli (talk) 13:01, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I would suggest leaving the current category as it is -- it does have a legitimate function. And for those Wikipedia entries that related to the New York State College of Forestry at Cornell, and the New York State College of Forestry at Syracuse (now SUNY-ESF), more generally, I would recommend re-establishing 'New York State College of Forestry' as a category. E.g. for Bernard Fernow, the relevant category should be 'New York State College of Forestry', not 'State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry'. Then it's a somewhat laborious task of one by one going through the entries to make sure they link to the appropriate category. There may be some cases, such as List of heads of the New York State College of Forestry that should link to both categories. Thanks, DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 20:37, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Have taken initial efforts to (a) re-establish the hastily deleted Category:New York State College of Forestry; and (b) correctly realign the various articles between this and that categories. The deleted and now partially re-established category still needs full restoration by whoever removed it in the first place. That is beyond me. Assistance welcome and encouraged! DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 11:36, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * My attempted solution is being undone without explanation. Hopefully sooner or later we'll hear some reasoned justification. Until then... DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 02:03, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

The above matter has been largely rectified, with the restoration of the Category:New York State College of Forestry along with the creation of this new category; and the clean-up of category entries between the two. A complicated history, but there is value, I think, in trying to keep it straight. DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 10:33, 24 August 2011 (UTC)