Draft talk:Antisemitism in Poland

Neutrality/error?
@Gitz6666 Regarding "The Polish army, allied with the anti-communist Ukrainian government of Symon Petliura, actively participated in the pogroms (1918–1920) that wiped out entire Jewish communities in the course of the Polish–Soviet War". I am not sure this is correct, as it 1) implies this was done by the Army, rather than disorderly troops and 2) it implies that the Polish Army actively targetted and destroyed "entire Jewish communities". The linked articles talks about several pogroms in which Polish Army participated, linking one: Lwów pogrom (1918). That pogrom does not seem to be condined by the Polish military authorities, nor did it result in the city's Jewish population being "wiped out". Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 16:47, 27 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The book I'm right now consulting (Mendelsohn 1983, quoted in the bibliography) says on the subject:
 * Admittedly this second source doesn't mention "wiped out" communities but the direct involvement of the army seems to be confirmed. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:21, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Poland did not sign an alliance with Petlura until April 1920, so I don't see how you can connect this event to the pogroms that happened earlier. I don't know why you link to Pogroms of the Russian Civil War, since these pogroms had nothing to do with the Russian Civil War (Poland was not involved in this conflict). And the Lviv pogrom took place in an area that was never part of Russia. Marcelus (talk) 17:53, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * My concern is that outside of the Pinsk massacre, AFAIK such events were not sanctioned by the commanding officers. Participation by a mob of soldiers is not the same as participation of the army. And which source supports the claim that the Polish army wiped out any Jewish communities? This sounds very much like a WP:REDFLAG. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 18:03, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * PS. This is a likely good and recent source: and it mentions "more than 130 pogroms of 1918–1921; many of them initiated by Polish military troops as they entered towns and cities of the new Poland". We could quantify the sentence above, v2: "In over a hundred of occasions, Polish soldiers and civilians actively participated in the pogroms (1918–1920)".  We can link here to the Lwów pogrom (1918) and Pinsk massacre and others, mentioned by Mendelsohn and other sources, if they have dedicated articles. There is also a related discussion and sources at Blue_Army_(Poland) that may be worth linking to. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  18:20, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Piotrus, that's an excellent source. Another good one is Hagen, Anti-Jewish violence in Poland . At pp. 311 ff. he discusses "Military Authorities and Soldierly Antisemitism": Relevant also p. 512:  Re wikilink, we could perhaps add Wilno-Lida pogroms. Note that Pogroms of the Russian Civil War also mentions pogrom in the context of the Polish–Ukrainian War, including the Lwów pogrom, and the infobox correctly includes Polish army among the perpetretors. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:24, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link and another good source we probably should use. It is likely that Wilno and Lida pogroms are notable and we need stand-alone articles about them. It is also possible we need artcles on Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1918–1921 and Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1935–1937 (I'll ping User:Dreamcatcher25 on whether pl wiki has any relavant articles to translate).
 * As far as I know, at pl.wiki there are no "overall themed" articles about Anti-Jewish violence in Poland in the years 1918-1921 or 1935-1937. There are lot articles about particular events, antisemitic initiatives or policies etc., but imao they quality and credibility differs. There are two GA, however, on attempted pogroms in Lwów in 1929 and 1932: pl:Zamieszki we Lwowie (1929), pl:Zamieszki we Lwowie (1932).Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 07:06, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * But back to the issue at hand: do you have any thoughts about my proposed rewording (which does not include the list of relevant articles in the parenthesis, includng red links, I'ld fully support having)? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 00:33, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with your proposed rewording. Please change the draft as you think best. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:39, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

This still needs work
@Gitz6666, @Marcelus - just a reminder this still needs work. We don't need to make it a GA-level article before publishing; rewording the stuff we have in quote blocks would get us pretty much to the point this could be published. It can be expaned later in the mainspace, but I think the readers would benefit from seeing this - now this is hidden in the draftspace. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 00:53, 31 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm short on time lately, but I'll do what I can Marcelus (talk) 21:04, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcelus @Gitz6666 Still looking forward to seeing this finished, but I am not that interested in this to do it myself quickly. If nobody has more energy, I am going to remove some undue quotations, slap some lead and move this to the mainspace so others can work on this as well. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:08, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Let's give ourselves 2-3 weeks more ok? I struggle to find time recently, but I will try to add some content soon. Marcelus (talk) 14:58, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * yes, I would like to continue working on this article because I've good sources that I have not yet cited, but I won't be able to do it in the next two weeks. If you want to move it to mainspace that's OK for me, then I will work on it from there, or you can wait a bit more, as you and Marcelus prefer. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:03, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Another important topic
Draft:Antisemitism in Germany - also missing (well, just a very stubby draft). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:47, 4 January 2024 (UTC)