Draft talk:Orpington & District Amateur Boxing Club

Citation
Please add citations / available via England Boxing website / roll of honour and British news paper archives.

notable boxer Jimmy Cable, Albert Hillman Box32 (talk) 06:45, 15 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Can you put a line between these references, or something? I'd be happy to try to format them correctly, but I can't tell where one ends and the next begins. Belbury (talk) 12:55, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I have put a line under all references on the draft page.
 * thanks again in advance for your help. Box32 (talk) 13:20, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Is that a secondary source ? Box32 (talk) 06:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Notability section below refers, where I have been asking what secondary sources we have. Looking at this one, the first thing to note that to count towards the general notability guidelines and the notability guidelines for organisations, sources must have significant coverage be independent, reliable and secondary sources. Let's look at each of these for this source:
 * Significant: Yes. This article talks about the history of the club itself. It is information an article could be written from
 * Reliable: Unclear. The source is News Shopper, a south London local newspaper, and the reporter, Amy Clark, also writes for the local Croydon paper, Your Local Guardian. This is very much local newspaper coverage. If we gave it the benefit of the doubt on reliability, it still fails on the next measure
 * Independent: No. The article begins "Club Chairman Oliver Watson explained that recently found old newspaper clippings have revealed that the club appears to have begun in the pre-WWII era." It then goes on to uncritically present Watson's thesis. Watson is not independent, and his thesis that "According to the unearthed articles, the club was founded by ex-pro boxer Harry Taylor in 1936, a good 26 years before Alf Reilly reestablished it in Petts Wood in 1962." is Watson's.
 * Secondary: Moot. As this is not independent, it is already discarded. Is it secondary? That depends on the question asked. Reporting Watson's thesis is primary in the reporting, but the thesis is itself certainly secondary. Watson has taken primary source material and synthesised it into a thesis. So yes, that is secondary. Secondary but not independent.
 * Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I have articles from the daily Mail and people and the mirror. Box32 (talk) 15:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Daily Mail is not a reliable source. The other two may be, but again, see WP:PRIMARYNEWS. Not all newspaper articles are primary sources, but a lot are. Do these sources analyse the club or provide a history of it? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:51, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * They do partially. Box32 (talk) 19:05, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

News paper articles
Published: Friday 05 June 1936

Newspaper: Bromley & West Kent Mercury

County: London, England

Terry Chases ABA chances / Orpington & District ABC / Terry Pearson

Published: Wednesday 23 January 1980

Newspaper: Kent Evening Post

County: Kent, England

TERRY SETS PRO TARGET

... national junior title and is making great strides as he approaches senior status A A S 5 a member of Orpington Boxing. Club, he won’ the London 80{;‘ Clubs’ title in the autumn, went on to take the regional champion: ship and finished the job at the Hilton ...

Published: Friday 25 January 1980

Newspaper: Maidstone Telegraph

County: Kent, England

Type: Article | Words: 188 | Page: 35 | Tags: non

ADDRESS That Lubbock fight KO'd

... be meeting Councillor Bill Cain in the boxing ring after all. Mr. Lubbock, 36-year-old one-time Oxford University amateur boxer, is M P for Orpington., Kent. He and Mr. Cain, 50-year-old Liberal member of Orpington town council, had planned to fight next ...

Published: Tuesday 30 March 1965

Newspaper: Daily Mirror

County: London, England

ORPINGTON BOXING BOU

... ORPINGTON BOXING BOUTS. . MAN KNOCKED OUT OF RING. . A sensation was caused during a boxing tournament at Orpington Village Hall on Thursday last week, when one of the contestants was knocked clean out of the ring and fell on his head at the feet of two ...

Published: Friday 23 April 1937

Newspaper: Bromley & West Kent Mercury

County: London, England

'''[https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0004288/19360605/269/0014 AMBULGAMIA. . WH]'''

... had to be abandoned owing to rain. boxing programme was organised by Mr. Garry Taylor, of the Crays and OrpingtonBoxing Club. A comic bout between Larry Eames, trainer to the club. and S. Burgess. chairman of the ...

Published: Friday 05 June 1936

Newspaper: Bromley & West Kent Mercury

County: London, England

Busy boxing boys are held to 3-3 draw

... included in an evening's boxingpromoted by the Orpington Amateur Boxing Club will go to the disaster fund. i At Ramsgate Martin Young proved too strong for his opponent, K. Otter, and the fight was stopped the fn.( round. An aggressive Michael A Idous gained ...

Published: Friday 04 November 1966

Newspaper: Kent Messenger & Gravesend Telegraph

County: Kent, England

... Westerham will be teaming up’ with Orpington Boxing Club and the Spitfire Boxing Club Biggin Hill for several joint promotions as well as providing fight fans with a higher grade of boxing On Tuesday November 3 ...

Published: Thursday 17 September 1987

Newspaper: Sevenoaks Focus

County: Kent, England

'''[https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0004288/19370528/274/0014 BOXING AT CRAY.. A b]'''

... (dhortlands); Jeff Thomas (Kent House) v. A Manlier (Tunbridge); George Tucker (United Dairies) v. Eric Young (Orpingtonand District Boxing Club); rzid Evan (0. and D. 8.0.) v. Charlie Phillips (London); Edgar Westbrook v. George Clark (both 0. and D. 8 ...

Published: Friday 28 May 1937

Newspaper: Bromley & West Kent Mercury

County: London, England

... collage at Cambridge in A PARTY of 40 Including boxers from Sir Winston Churchill Boxing Club and Orpington Boxing Clubreturned triumphant from Cornwall recently group twin club Penryn and Falmouth ABC winning ...

Published: Wednesday 26 November 1986

Newspaper: Sevenoaks Focus

County: Kent, England

... Bathurst. King. Russell. Kimber. Leach, Pol Land. Emment. Graham's the boy Two Oid Actomans were on the boxing bill at the Orpington Amateur Boxing Club in Kent lair week. ,Graham Scarrou was the (but to appear. He used an of fettive left jab and a powerful ...

Published: Thursday 25 October 1973

Newspaper: Acton Gazette

County: London, England

This season Westerham win be teaming up with Orpington Boxing Club and Spitfire Boxing Club Biggin for joint promotions The Orpington and Westerham Boxing ...

Published: Friday 18 September 1987

Newspaper: Sevenoaks Chronicle and Kentish Advertiser

County: Kent, England

within the club) went to club president Mr Maurice Ingleton The trophies were presented by Mr W Silvester president of Orpington Boxing Club and chairman Mr Melvyn Shorter and Mr Doug Sayers vice-chairman of the Sir Winston Churchill ...

Published: Thursday 29 October 1987

Newspaper: Sevenoaks Focus

County: Kent, England

evening’s action is available Sir Winston Churchill Boxing Club are now working towards a big dinner show set for Thursday (October 16) at the Marlowe Rooms in Sidcup in connection with OrpingtonBoxing Club The ...

Published: Friday 10 October 1986

Newspaper: Sevenoaks Chronicle and Kentish Advertiser

County: Kent, England

ORPINGTON LADS ' CLUB. The Village Lads’ Club is doing well, and the comfort of having a good room with plenty of amusement is demomstrated by the numbers which turned up last Thursday evening. St. Mary Cray Troop of Scouts sent up two ...

Published: Friday 29 March 1912

Newspaper: Eltham & District Times

County: London, England

of 11 boxers from the St Mary's club, Chatham, managed to get a contest when they travelled to a show at the RosecroftClub, Orpington. Tony Thompson impressed in only his second bout by out pointing 8. King, of Orpington, in an entertaining ...

Published: Wednesday 15 December 1976

Newspaper: Kent Evening Post

County: Kent, England

They are facing the first hurdle of the national schoolboys boxing championships in the Kent semi-finals at RosecroftWorking Men’s Club, Orpington. The Chatham team is Geoffrey Morrall (Sheerness Secondary), David Brincat (Walderslade Secondary), Andrew ...

Published: Thursday 17 January 1974

Newspaper: Kent Evening Post

County: Kent, England

They are facing the first hurdle of the national schoolboys boxing championships in the Kent semi-finals at RosecroftWorking Men’'s Club, Orpington. The Chatham team is Geoffrey Morrall (Sheerness Secondary), David Brincat (Walderslade Secondary), Andrew ...

Published: Thursday 17 January 1974

Newspaper: Kent Evening Post

County: Kent, England

MARY CRAY Boxing of an almost pro!essional polish was seen at a tournament by Orpington and District_Amateur Boxing ...

Published: Friday 04 June 1937

Newspaper: Bromley & West Kent Mercury

County: London, England

.. ORPINGTON BOXING BOUTS. . MAN KNOCKED OUT OF RING. . A sensation was caused during a boxing tournament at Orpington Village Hall on Thursday last week, when one of the contestants was knocked clean out of the ring and fell on his head at the feet of two ...

Published: Friday 23 April 1937

Newspaper: Bromley & West Kent Mercury

County: London, England

... VILLAGE HALL BOXING. SPIRITED CONTESTS. Mr. Harry Taylor's boxingprogramme attraeted an enthuniastic crowd to Orpington Village Hall on Thursday last week. and if they were inclined to give npirted advice and criticism to combatants it showed at least ...

Published: Friday 05 June 1936

Newspaper: Bromley & West Kent Mercury

County: London, England

The last of the staged events was a series of boxing contests, mostly by well-known local performers, arranged by Mr. Harry Taylor, of Crays and Orpington BoxingClub. . ...

Published: Friday 26 June 1936

Newspaper: Bromley & West Kent Mercury

County: London, England

.. included in an evening's boxing promoted by the Orpington Amateur Boxing Club will go to the disaster fund. i At Ramsgate Martin Young proved too strong for his opponent, K. Otter, and the fight was stopped the fn.( round. An aggressive Michael A Idous gained ...

Published: Friday 04 November 1966

Newspaper: Kent Messenger & Gravesend Telegraph

County: Kent, England Box32 (talk) 10:33, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Notability
All the sources appear to be primary sources (newspaper accounts). What secondary sources discuss this club? Secondary sources would not be accounts of fights etc. They would be sources analysing the club, or providing a history of it. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:33, 31 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Primary sources are perfect. New papers, television etc Box32 (talk) 06:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Have a read of WP:N. In establishing whether a subject is notable for a page, you need secondary sources covering the topic. This is because Wikipedia itself is an encyclopaedia and thus not a secondary source. Wikipedia is a tertiary source. See the section of that page, WP:WHYN for more on that. Also see the section on WP:GNG which states, inter alia, and  Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * However, sustained coverage is an indicator of notability, as described by notability of events. New organisations and future events. Sustained media coverage / television / books / newspapers over period of 1912 to 2024, is a sustained period of coverage from representing the country / team GB and involvement with Olympic squad. Box32 (talk) 10:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The key word there is "events". An event is notable if it continues to be covered long after the fact. Sustained coverage. Events, not organisations. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * These are the applicable guidelines: WP:NORG. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * No it Includes organisations and events and new events.
 * National events such as the England Boxing national championships have been held at the club over sustained period.
 * Never the less it is also notable under other reasons and factors.
 * it’s under review so it’s not for us to assume.
 * This is a ongoing article and please feel free to add to it. Box32 (talk) 11:49, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Secondary sources involve generalisation, analysis, interpretation, or evaluation of the original information. Some primary sources maybe secondary, some of the news paper article are secondary and the mentions in books are secondary. Box32 (talk) 06:23, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Which articles do you believe are secondary sources? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Which articles to you feel are not secondary ?
 * feel free to add any information to the page. Box32 (talk) 10:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Per WP:PRIMARYNEWS, all of them. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:13, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The mainstream media newspapers and television bbc1 news all mention the club in both primary and secondary sources. Box32 (talk) 11:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * What secondary source coverage have you found? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:23, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Multiple sources,what secondary sources have you found ? Box32 (talk) 13:38, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This is going nowhere. As I have stated, I have found none. You have not identified any either. This won't get through review if you can't find any secondary sources. I am trying to help you with what is needed here, but at this point I'll just leave it there. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There are multiple secondary sources already cited. Box32 (talk) 14:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered. Box32 (talk) 10:59, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * All 3 news shopper articles are secondary.
 * BBc1 new
 * ? Box32 (talk) 14:23, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There was an article in the boxing news in 70s, could you locate that ?
 * what about the bbc1 news in 1965 ?
 * The news shopper articles talk about the history. Box32 (talk) 17:49, 1 June 2024 (UTC)