File talk:EasternBloc BorderChange38-48.svg

Comments about description text copied from another Talk Page
EasternBloc BorderChange38-48.svg map description. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 12:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Moldavian SSR was not annexed as it was created after the Bessarabia annexation from large Bessarabia part and large part of former Moldavian ASSR. So if even annexed but partially only, Transnistria not including
 * 2) The Transnistria exchange between the Ukrainian SSR and the Moldavian SSR was not any territories exchange (Moldavia gets Transnistria, Ukraine gets Izmail and Chernivtsi oblasts). USSR annexed Romanian territories and divided them in 3 portions (as with former Polish lands divided in 3 pieces). Moldavian SSR was created as a result of this "exchange", so it was not a Moldavian-Ukrainian exchange. These administrative divisions of USSR were not able to act independently, but over direct Moscow rulers control.
 * 3) Izmail oblast was not annexed as it was created after the annexation, this territory historical name was South Bessarabia or Bujak
 * 4) Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union - yes, this is more correct description as only after the annexation this territories were divided with Ukrainian SSR, Byelorussian SSR and independent Lithuania. So North Bukovina, Hertza and Bessarabia were annexed, but not Chernivtsi and Izmail oblasts and Moldavian SSR.
 * 5) What is the difference:"Transfer of territories" (German to Poland with total ethnic cleasing) and "annexation" (Polish to USSR with partial ethnic cleasing)? Both territories changes are respected as legal by the respective governments in 1948 (sorry, German government was not sovereign). The map reflects 1948 situation, isn't it?
 * 6) Why Dantzig annexation was not mentioned?
 * 7) Kaliningrad oblast was created in April 1946 after the annexation, so Northern East Prussia was annexed.
 * 8) Abrene district was not Latvia part, but Latvian SSR part, so transferred from Latvian SSR to the RSFSR
 * 9) Ivangorod and Pechory districts were not Estonia, but Estonian SSR parts when transferred to the RSFSR
 * 10) Lithuania (not Lithuanian SSR) got the Vilnius region from USSR, but not directly from Poland (see Soviet–Lithuanian Mutual Assistance Treaty).
 * 11) Not a part of Karelo-Finnish territory was annexed by USSR, but a part of Finnish territory. As this map deadline is 1948, as this territory was transferred to RSFSR in 1944, so it was not a Karelo-Finnish SSR part in 1948
 * 12) Annexation of Czechoslovac Carpatian Ruthenia by the USSR


 * 1. To clarify, I just added the words "most of" to this bullet point.
 * 2. To clarify, I just edited this to state "transfer from the Ukrainian SSR to the Moldavian SSR"
 * 3. To clarify, I just changed the text to "the area now approximating the Izmail Oblast".
 * 4. The area now approximating the Chernivtsi Oblast used to belong to Romania and was unquestionably annexed into the Ukrainian SSR between 1938 and 1948.
 * 5. To avoid confusion, I changed this to annexation
 * 6. The annexation of the Free City of Danzig was added (forgot that in the text)
 * 7. To avoid confusion, I changed the text to "The annexation of the the area now approximating the Kaliningrad Oblast"
 * 8. To avoid confusion, I changed the text to "Latvian SSR"
 * 9. To avoid confusion, I changed the text to "Estonian SSR"
 * 10. To avoid confusion, I changed the text to "from Poland into what is now the Lithuanian SSR"
 * 11. To avoid confusion, I changed the text to "part of the area approximating Karelo-Finnish SSR"
 * 12. To avoid confusion, I changed the text to "into the Ukrainian SSR of Carpathian Ruthenia" Mosedschurte (talk) 15:52, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Problems with file description again

 * 1) The annexation of most of the Moldavian SSR - Moldavian SSR was not annexed as it didn't exist in the annexation moment
 * 2) The annexation of the area now approximating the Izmail Oblast into the Ukrainian SSR - Now Izmail oblast does not exist
 * 3) The Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union - this note does not describe this territories partition in three parts - to Lithuania, Byelorussian SSR, Ukrainian SSR.  It was the main annexation in this period, so why smaller annexations were described (what SSR  was expanded, what administrative divisit it is now) but Poland's territories not?
 * 4) The annexation of the the area now approximating the Kaliningrad Oblast into the RSFSR - why it was not mentioned that this territory was annexed East Prussia part (as it was mentioned with Polish annexation of the Southern East Prussia)?
 * 5) The annexation of the Vilnius region from Poland into what is now the Lithuanian SSR - this territory was a Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union part mentioned above. It was Western part of Polish Vilnius region, the rest was annexed by Byelorussian SSR, but this annexation was not mentioned specially, as Halychyna&Volyn annexation by Ukrainian SSR.
 * 6) NOW Lithuanian SSR is not present
 * 7) The annexation of part of the area approximating Karelo-Finnish SSR - the main part of the former Finnish territory (around of Ladoga Lake) in 1944 was transferred to RSFSR and needs be separated by green line from Karelo-Finnish SSR. As the former Finnish-Soviet border (before the Winter War) needs be shown with black line (as former state boundary line)

GENERAL NOTES
 * Only for Romania-Bolgaria, Hungary-Czechoslovakia and Italia-Yugoslavia boundary changes the counries from what were these territories annexed were mentioned. It is important to mention that were annexed German territories, Finnish, Romanian, Czechoslovak, Polish.
 * It is logical to mention every Baltic state separately, not in group.Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:04, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

More comments
(Additional issues copied from this user from me, Mosedschurte (talk) 22:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC), from another Talk page):


 * Italian Fiume and Zara annexaton by Yugoslavia was not shown at this map
 * East Germany - West Germany boundary needs to be green as a new one.
 * Karelian Isthmus former Soviet-Finnish boundary needs to be black as 1938 boundaries
 * Karelian Isthmus was transferrd to RSFSR in 1944, so it was not a Karelo-Finnish SSR part in 1948 and needs be separated from Karelo-Finnish SSR with green line.

Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Re: The annexation of most of the Moldavian SSR - Moldavian SSR was not annexed as it didn't exist in the annexation moment (Bogomolov.PL)
 * Fixed - changed to "The annexation of the territory encompassing most of the Moldavian SSR. "


 * Re: The annexation of the area now approximating the Izmail Oblast into the Ukrainian SSR - Now Izmail oblast does not exist
 * Fixed - changed to "The annexation of the area in 1948 approximating the Izmail Oblast into the Ukrainian SSR"


 * Re: The Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union - this note does not describe this territories partition in three parts - to Lithuania, Byelorussian SSR, Ukrainian SSR. It was the main annexation in this period, so why smaller annexations were described (what SSR  was expanded, what administrative divisit it is now) but Poland's territories not? (Bogomolov.PL)
 * I'm not sure that I fully understood this issue, I think because of a language issue. If the issue is the reason that the individual oblasts, territories, etc. of the Poland annexation were not broken down in the file description, the only reason they were for the other bullet points was that there was no other way to describe the event and territories.  So the individual oblast or territory was described in some detail to help any reader figure out which area of the map was being described.  For the territories of Poland annxed by the Soviet Union, an entire article has already been created called Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union, which was instead linked.


 * Re: The annexation of the the area now approximating the Kaliningrad Oblast into the RSFSR - why it was not mentioned that this territory was annexed East Prussia part (as it was mentioned with Polish annexation of the Southern East Prussia)? (Bogomolov.PL)
 * Fixed - This was because it was shortest and easiest to describe the area in the map description by referece to the area now approximating a single actually existing oblast, the Kaliningrad Oblast. For the other dicontinguous areas annexed into Poland, it was easiest to describe them as part of East Prussia and the territories east of the Oder-Neisse line.


 * Re: The annexation of the Vilnius region from Poland into what is now the Lithuanian SSR- this territory was a Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union part mentioned above. It was Western part of Polish Vilnius region, the rest was annexed by Byelorussian SSR, but this annexation was not mentioned specially, as Halychyna&Volyn annexation by Ukrainian SSR. (Bogomolov.PL)
 * Fixed - The earlier portion has been changed to "The western part of the Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union". This refers to the eastern portion of that annexation.


 * Re: NOW Lithuanian SSR is not present (Bogomolov.PL)
 * Fixed - This has been changed to "The annexation of the Vilnius region from Poland into what was in 1948 the Lithuanian SSR"


 * Re: The annexation of part of the area approximating Karelo-Finnish SSR - the main part of the former Finnish territory (around of Ladoga Lake) in 1944 was transferred to RSFSR and needs be separated by green line from Karelo-Finnish SSR. As the former Finnish-Soviet border (before the Winter War) needs be shown with black line (as former state boundary line) (Bogomolov.PL)
 * Fixed


 * Re: Italian Fiume and Zara annexaton by Yugoslavia was not shown at this map (Bogomolov.PL)
 * Fiume I think is shown. Zara (Zadar) is fixed.


 * Re: East Germany - West Germany boundary needs to be green as a new one. (Bogomolov.PL)
 * Fixed


 * Re: Karelian Isthmus former Soviet-Finnish boundary needs to be black as 1938 boundaries (Bogomolov.PL)
 * Fixed Mosedschurte (talk) 22:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Comments about descriptions
First, I hope it was ok that I was bold to make the changes. I don't mind at all somebody correcting further after me if he/she sees something. This is the part I change:


 * The annexation of Bessarabia, northern Bukovina, and Hertza region by the Soviet Union from Romania, and the distribution of this territory:
 * Most of Bessarabia became the Moldavian SSR.
 * Transnistria was transfered from the Ukrainian SSR to the Moldavian SSR.
 * Northern Bukovina, the Hertza region, and a small northern part of Bessarabia became Chernivtsi oblast of the Ukrainian SSR.
 * Southern Bessarabia (Budjak) became part of the Ukrainian SSR

First, the entire territory was annexed by USSR from Romania (28 June 1940), then (2 August 1940) USSR out of most of the territory it already controls for over a month (the territory was under military occupation and had no legal status even in the USSR that month) creates Moldavian SSR, disbands Moldavian ASSR (which was part of Ukrainian SSR), and transfers a part of MASSR to Moldavian SSR. What remains in the north becomes (exactly, not approximately) the Chernivtsi oblast of Ukrainian SSR. What remains in the south becomes (exactly, not approximately) the Izmail oblast of Ukrainian SSR. Transnistria as currently understood in geographical terms refers to that part of MASSR that was transfered on 2 August 1940 to MSSR, which was created on the very same day. So it serves as a very good identifier. Izmail oblast was disbanded in 1953 or 1954, and became part of the Odessa Oblast of Ukrainian SSR. Budjak as currently understood (in the Middle Ages it was understood slightly larger, and topographically it is still understood slightly larger) is precisely (not approximately) the territory that became Izamil Oblast in 1940. So Budjak is a better identifier than Izmail Oblast, imho, b/c Budjak does not require the adjective "former". Dc76\talk 23:48, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Yugoslavia?
In the article Satellite state it is written: "Soviet satellite states in Europe included:


 * The People's Republic of Albania
 * The People's Republic of Bulgaria
 * The Czechoslovak Socialist Republic
 * The German Democratic Republic
 * The People's Republic of Poland
 * The People's Republic of Romania
 * The People's Republic of Hungary

The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is sometimes also referred to as a Soviet satellite, though it broke from the Soviet Union in the 1948 Tito-Stalin split and subsequently helped to form the Non-Aligned Movement."

- Satellite state so Yugoslavia should be removed or colored with stripes or smt. like this --93.87.133.45 (talk) 11:25, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

i disagree with a few points made by Ip User 93.87.133.45 but i do agree with some of this users points. here is my compromise it should be ok to include some small Grey lines indicating the internal republics of the Yugoslav federation. already theres some for the internal parts of czecoslovakia this would be no diffrent then the current map file already showing the republics of the soviet union. the internal republics dont even have to be named because they would not fit. only show small grey lines where the current republics are excluding kosovo of course because that would be too point of view unless it actually was not governed by serbian republic in the 1940's. also the puppet state republics of Yugoslavia made by Italy and germany should be excluded because the map is leaning more towards post ww2 era already and that the period from 1938 to 1945 is not really representd as well. its my understanding that the map is ment to be from the point of view of soviet Union anyways. i disagree with your point of just shading yugoslavia in two color strips. so far most of your points have been resolved and most of these satilite states are on the map but these long form names just chant be shown to scale to you will have to accept thos soviet republics the way they are represented on the map. i do agree that yugoslavia needs to show internal republics. but also dont forget to draw a line inside of czechoslovakia for its two internal republics and then the map will be complete. 69.221.170.231 (talk) 13:06, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I was wondering if the Soviet Zone of Austria can be shown like there is already one for germany
I like the map so far i was just wondering if it could be impoved by including the the soviet zone in Austria. this section of austria was annexed to the soviet union so should be orange like danzig and Silesia and others. the only thing is it was a temporary annexation until austria regained self goverment after world war 2. 69.221.170.231 (talk) 14:03, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

RFSFR?
The Kaliningrad Oblast is labeled RFSFR. Presumably this is a typo and it should be labeled RSFSR, although I may be mistaken. LC007 (talk) 00:06, 12 May 2013 (UTC)