File talk:Europe religion map en.png

Data source
As mentioned on several places below there are serious concerns about the map not meeting WIKI quality standards. To major one - no data source is listed, this is contibuting to numerous observations that the map is incorrect. Ruud64 (talk) 09:14, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Map
This map is beautiful! This being Wikipedia, though, I do have a few nits to pick:

1. It looks like the entire Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina has been entirely noted as being a Sunni area. It would be more accurate to mark the areas dominated by Croats as Catholic.

2. Armenia is lumped in with the other Orthodox countries; however, it's an Oriental Orthodox state and thus is from a separate religious tradition. A Serb could take communion in a Romanian Orthodox church, and a Romanian in a Russian Orthodox church, and so on; but the Armenian church does not share communion with the others. Also, the Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan is also Armenian Orthodox. --Jfruh (talk) 17:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Armenia is NOT an Oriental Orthodox State. --76.210.239.183 (talk) 00:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Subtle definitional differences
What exactly does this map seek to represent? The predominant religions in contemporary Europe, or historically-predominant religions? In the Czech Republic and Estonia, Christianity is a minority religion, considering that the majority of the population are atheists or non-religious. If the map represents current religious demographics, then these regions should be coloured in as "non-religious" or athiest. If, one the other hand, this maps show traditional religious believes, or religious heritage, then it's OK as it is, but it should be captioned different on all of the articles which use it. It is currently captioned as "Predominant religions in Europe", which makes its content incorrect. Ronline ✉ 13:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep, I can see that after so many years there is still no clear idea of this is a map OF. Krum Stanoev (talk) 10:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree, interesting map though but I would like to see a source of the data used for this map ..appears somewhat outdated for current western europe. Ruud64 (talk) 21:57, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Color correction
The pastel shades are difficult to distinguish on LCD displays. Some stronger shades would probably be easier on the eyes. -- Beland 07:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I also find them difficult to distinguish with my poor colour vision. Contrasting shades in addition to contrasting hues will help the most people with colour vision problems to distinguish the colours. For example, making the Protestant areas a little darker or lighter would make a HUGE difference in helping me tell them apart from the Catholic areas. (unregistered user, 28 Feb 2007)


 * If I have time, I will correct the colors. -- San Jose 11:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That'd be great. I'm colourblind myself to some extent, and I cannot see *any* difference between "Protestant" and "Catholic" on this map. :) -- Schneelocke 09:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I would classify the colors as inhuman – I'm not color-blind the least, but the bright weak colors were annoying, and yet hard to distinguish. Rursus 13:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * A new version uploaded, modified by GIMP: 1) darkening, 2) increasing the colors, 3) rotating color spaces twice, so that a) the difference between "protestant" and "catholics" differed by blueness and greenness (not perfect but better than nothing) b) shia is yellow, while sunni is violet. There's still the problem of "protestant" and Eastern Orthodox being almost equally bright on the red-versus-green dimension, which should be problematic for red-green color "blindness". Rursus 13:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Besides: the colors aren't less ugly now - they're just easier to discern. Rursus 13:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Besides: the map should be replaced by an SVG image. Rursus 13:55, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Source?
What is the source of the data about which religion is dominant where? -- Beland 07:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Same question. What is the data source ? Ruud64 (talk) 21:53, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Inaccurate
In the Czech Republic most of people are atheist, look at Census data or at Demographics of the Czech Republic. - Darwinek 10:11, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Also in Chechnya/Ichkeria and Daghestan almost 100% people are Sunni Muslim, yet those countries are shown as Christian. --Al-Bargit 16:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * But atheism is not a denomination with separate organizations or temples. There are human-ethicians in Sweden, who have an organization, and they may be regarded as a denomination. I think the pictured dominant religions are referring to number of organization member, and a really crude classification of the organizations – IMHO Calvinists differs from Swedish Church and Anglicans more than Swedish Church and Anglicans from Roman Catholicism. Rursus 14:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I strongly disagree. A large part of not being religious or being an atheist is NOT taking part in organised religious activities. Most of us aren't active atheists, we just don't care about religious matters. And in places where the majority of people are members of no denomination, that ought to show in a map like this. /85.194.44.18 17:28, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If it's a map of denominations, then aethisism shouldn't be included. If it's a map of religious beliefs, I'm fifty-fifty, as it's not a religion, but it is a belief.  In the absence of a relegion, I think it's appropriate to show either the most popular religion or leave it blank.  Leaving it blank might give the wrong impression, though, that data was unavailable.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.7.17.3 (talk) 19:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The remark that this map is misleading by not showing countires where atheists or non -belivers are the predomimant group is coming up and up again, and is voiced so often that something needs to be done about it . Ruud64 (talk) 22:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Tried to clean up image
I created a new image to try to make it a little better. It is image:EuropeMajorReligions.png. I'm not sure if it's entirely correct, some of the colors were pretty hard to distinguish in the original. Feel free to change it if you want. --Sbrools ( talk .  contribs ) 22:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry (after your effort), but the Turks are generally Sunni, not Shia. Also: Germany is divided between Roman Catholicism and Lutheran Protestantism. Rursus 14:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Now instead of whining, I tried to improve the image here: HERE!. Image still needs improvements (among others a full SVG remake), feel free to ... Rursus 19:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You still didn't get the Armenians right --Proski 01:07, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Bulgarian muslims
Kărdžali, Razgrad, and Smoljan oblasts are shown as having a muslim majority; while that is true for Kărdžali and Razgrad, in Smoljan muslims are not a majority but a plurality. http://www.nsi.bg/Census/Religion.htm Smoljan Total: 140 066, Orthodox: 41 599, Catholic: 100, Protestant: 93, Muslim: 58 758, Other: 97, None: 39 003, Not answered: 416

In the census paper http://www.nsi.bg/Census/Card6.htm there are seperate choices for Sunni and Shia, but these seem to have been aggregated on the webpage. This made me think of an interesting problem. Now this map seems to color a region by the plurality, also ignoring people that do not affiliate themselves with a religion. This would be a problem, for example, if of the muslims in Smoljan province 30 000 were sunni and 28 758 shia (which in reality they're not, they're probably much, much less; shias may be more than sunnis in Razgrad oblast, though - this needs to be checked, as currently it's colored sunni). Do you color it orthodox by virtue of them being a plurality among people who identify with a religion, subdivided into orthodox, catholic, protestant, sunni, shia, and others; or do you color it sunni, by virtue of muslims being a plurality among people who affiliate themselves with a religion, when divided into christians, muslims, and other, and sunnis being a plurality among muslims?

What I'm describing above may actually be a problem in Razgrad (orthodox outnumbering sunnis and shia individually, but muslims outnumbering orthodox christians). But I haven't found any hard data. There is also second-tier administrative unit that's majority catholic, Rakovski municipality, but the maps seems to take into account highest-level divisions only.

Krum Stanoev 10:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, someone should color Rodopi and possibly Xanthi sunni too. ( the Greek provinces just south of the southern Bulgarian ones) Krum Stanoev 13:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

And will whoever is capable of editing this image _please_ finally make a color for buddhist and color Kalmykia appropriately. Krum Stanoev 13:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

A few possible lapses
1. Armenian Orthodox aren't in communion with other Orthodox and form their own separate church.

2. Catholics in the Latgalia province of Latvia (southeastern Latvia). The marked area in image does not include all the territory of Latgalia.

3. Protestants in eastern Hungary.

4. Protestants in the Székelyföld.

5. Catholics in western Ukraine and Belarus.

6. Orthodox in eastern Poland and Estonia.

7. Pagans in isolated parts of Russia.

8. A less-rigid Russo-Finnish border: some Orthodox on the Finnish side, some Protestants on the Russian side. Biruitorul 06:25, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've also noticed Israel is identified as a protestant area, this seems pretty erroneous. --NEMT 06:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

And also: 8. Atheists in Czech Republic! Thank you. --83.131.12.76 12:12, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Alsace
I'm pretty sure it has a protestant majority, not a Roman Catholic one. Matthieu 12:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * From the article: "Most of the Alsatian population is Roman Catholic, but largely because of the région's German influence, a significant Protestant community also exists." --NEMT 17:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Kalmykia
The map fails to note Kalmyk people of Kalmykia who are Tibetan Buddhists. -- Petri Krohn 12:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I was just about to say the same thing when I looked at the map. I suggest that the map be updated to reflect the Tibetan Buddhist Kalmyk population centers.

Armenia
Also, if I recall correctly, the Armenian Apostolic Church is not an Eastern Orthodox religion, but an Oriental Orthodox religion.
 * Who cares, both are Orthodox...
 * Who cares? I care, and so do people who are not ignorant like you. Oriental Orthodox churches and Eastern Orthodox churches are not in full communion which means that they do not regard each other as separate geographic entities of a single ecclesiastic body. Just because it has word orthodox in it does not mean they should be thrown into a single category. Orthodox Jewish has word orthodox in it, should we include them as well?--Polgraf (talk) 00:20, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Alevis of Turkey
If I recall correctly, the major Alevi population centers in Turkey (whether in Anatolia or in Thrace) are derived from Shia Islam, not Sunni Islam. - Gilgamesh 00:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah according to wikipedia, there are around 15-20 million alevi people living in turkey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi --78.172.186.252 (talk) 18:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Scotland and its Catholic population
Doesn't Scotland have a significant population of Catholics? RSieradzki 23:33, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It does, about 16%, according to Roman Catholic Church in Scotland. The largest church in Scotland is, however, the reformed Church of Scotland (42%), according to the same article. --Salocin [[Image:Flag of Bremen.svg|20px]][[Image:Flag of Germany.svg|20px]]Talk 15:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The islands of Benbecula, South Uist and Barra are home to indigenous Catholic majorities, and should therefore be represented on this map as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.242.48 (talk) 23:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

britain=protestant; germany=protestant & catholic?
that's an obvious mistake. britain has the most romance history, state, language and church in the "north of europe", not that north europeans consider the britons to be nordic anyways. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiblastfromthewikipast (talk • contribs) 01:41, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Kazakhstan and Muslims inside Russia
Kazakhstan is shown as Orthodox country, which is a mistake. Large number of Muslims, lives in Crimea, Urals and Volga's delta, however. alongside with Russian orthodox. It's difficult to say in whcih areas Muslim outnumber Christians or vice versa. O, yeah, Kalmykia is also wrongly indicated... --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ ( see also: ә? Ә!) 15:55, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Lviv oblast of Ukraine
Interesting fact that it's marked as "Roman Catholicism". Really it's Eastern Catholic Churches includes big part of Western Ukraine. So, another inaccuracy is marked only Lviv Oblast. Why not Galicia (Central Europe) or whole Western Ukraine?

''Fifty-six percent of the religious organisations active in the Lviv Oblast adhere to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church is the second largest religious body. The followers of the Roman Catholic Church and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchy) are mostly from the Polish, and Russian or non-Galician Ukrainian minorities respectively.''

--Oleh Kernytskyi (talk) 14:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Picture authore, please do something!

 * Why is different color of Ternopil Oblast and Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast? Also Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is Catholic in-law but really Orthodox Church. So where are two ways. 1. Set as Catholic all Greek Catholic teritories or 2. Check Lviv Oblast as Orthodox. --Oleh Kernytskyi (talk) 23:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

FYROM
Why is Fyrom marked as Macedonia??? Iaberis (talk) 05:37, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Refer to the main page on Macedonia for this. This issue has been talked over and over again. --Ubardak (talk) 09:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Why is New England so called? Why is New York stealing the name of York (or the Duke of York)?  Why aren't the Danish getting angry with New Zealand because of their name?  Stop moaning.  A sovereign country can use the name of its choosing regardless of silly Greek complaints.--217.201.204.236 (talk) 23:19, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

"A sovereign country can use the name of its choosing regardless of silly Greek complaints." Apparently, it can't. Since the majority of the worlds nations and also the United Nations, NATO, the E.U. and many others legal government entities refer to this tiny country as F.Y.R.O.M. The problem with 'F.Y.R.O. Macedonia' is that it is implying rights over another nations territory; a very dangerous situation, since Macedonia is a State in Northern Greece. It also tries to 'borrow' another nations identity; equally dangerous. And, it's just silly. Only 3% (three percent) of F.Y.R.O.M.'s territory was a part on ancient Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians, of course, were Greek and spoke Greek, worshiped Greek gods, participated in the Greek-only Olympic events, not to mention Alexander the Great stating numerous times that he is/was Greek (Hellenic). Please refer to Alexander the Greats page. The citizens of F.Y.R.O.M are Slavic ethnically and speak a Bulgarian language (what they call "Macedonian"). The Slavs did not even live in the Balkans until over a thousand years after the time of Alexander. So your comparison of New York and New England (which, by the way, were founded by English people from York and England) to the situation in the powder-keg that is the Balkans is very simplistic, and wholly inaccurate. Lastly, writing things like "stop moaning" and "silly Greek complaints" doesn't help your position. The Greeks have truth on their side. --76.210.239.183 (talk) 01:10, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Britain
I think it is misleading do have Britain listed as purely protestant. The UK has a large Catholic Population - which by some estimates outnumbers the Anglican population. Perhaps it is time to come up with a "mixed chistian" category. Oh and much of N. Ireland is Catholic deminated areas. 202.67.95.215 (talk) 09:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, Britain is becoming a mostly Catholic country with recent imigration. I have this link but a more scholarly source would do much better - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1573452/Britain-has-become-a-%27Catholic-country%27.html  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.109.193 (talk) 01:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Britain has a far larger Anglican population tahn catholic

However the Anglican denomination is both Catholic and Protestant according to itself. So the idea of parts of Britian i.e. England Wales and Protestant Northern Ireland could have a differnt colour (also if scotland was added then the mix between catholic and Presbyterian would be satisfied as above) --Lemonade100 (talk) 16:54, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * You seem to confuse the terms 'Catholic' and 'Roman Catholic'. Both the Anglicans and Lutherans regard themselves "Catholic" (meaning part of one holy, common Church), but not Roman Catholic. --Sasper (talk) 09:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

One thing I suggest changing is having the Southern Outer Hebrides marked Catholic because, in contrast to the majority of Scotland, they are mostly Roman Catholic. Munci (talk) 14:05, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Armenia
Actualy armenian church isn't ortodox church. Thay folow monophisite traditions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.118.205.130 (talk) 11:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Map of Kosovo
This map should be modified in order to fully reflect the newborn Republic of Kosovo. That is, Kosovo's official border line should appear on the map.--Arber (talk) 13:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * see Image talk:Europe countries map en.png -- 217.238.228.58 (talk) 15:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, Kosovo has been independent from Serbia for over a year. Or is it already here? 89.242.183.73 (talk) 08:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

It's tricky, but I don't think Kosovo should be shown as a separate entity from Serbia. While quite a few UN states consider Kosovo independent, it has not been officially recognized by the UN (or the EU). For now I think the map should stay as is. 98.196.78.26 (talk) 06:46, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Jewish communities
Jews have lived on the continent for more than a thousand years. Perhaps some indication should be made of areas of large Jewish population.Bless sins (talk) 19:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * They should atleast garner a color legend, as Israel is labeled on the map. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.7.17.3 (talk) 19:54, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't believe a need for including small "dots" of European Jews is an useful idea. Judaism has declined in Europe for centuries by a whole number of reasons, such as the Holocaust and exodus migration to Israel after WWII, and the impact of assimilation has encouraged many European Jews to convert into Christianity. I'm aware Judaism has been rooted in Europe for nearly 2,000 years, the continuity of Jewish beliefs, customs and traditions, and a resurgence of "observant" Jews in Eastern Europe. Jewish communities form a small segment of urban populations of Amsterdam, Antwerp, Berlin, London, Paris, Rome, the Rhine-Ruhr valleys in Germany, and the Judaeo-Spanish speaking Jews of the Balkans or southeast Europe. + Mike D 26 (talk) 04:32, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Non Believers
I know this has been mentioned before but I think this map is slightly misleading in that it chops Europe up into dominant religions when in fact in many areas of Europe atheists and agnostics outnumber the largest religion. Perhaps we could have an extra entry on the legend for "non believers more numerous than largest religious group" and then add diagonal white banding on top of the colour for the most dominant religion. Billsmith453 (talk) 10:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Not having a religion is not an example of organized religion, which is what I believe this map seeks to portray. IT is a beautiful map, in any case. --Npovshark (talk) 20:17, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree, the fact that Eastern Germany is shown as protestant where actually less than a quarter are actually adherents to this believe system is misleading especially as non believers reprensent the majority ... even more misleading is that in parts of Eastern Germany Roman cCatholics outnumber protestants and in other parts (around berlin) muslims also outnumber protestants but this is all not shown. A bigger concern is though that this map seems to be made without any data source, hence not compliant with WIKI quality standardsRuud64 (talk) 09:10, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Genève and Vaud
Genève and Vaud in soutwestern Switzerland are given as Romanists, but they are historically Protestant and nowadays non-believing. Granted there are many immigrants filling up the Mass, but which are the data and their interpretation basing the map?

Leandro GFC Dutra (talk) 01:27, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

BiH
There is an array of catholic (Croat) enclaves in Northern and Central Bosnia. Why are these not shown on the map ? --Čeha (razgovor) 13:57, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Again, catholic enclaves. 2 ones in Northern Bosnia by Croatian border(Odzak and Orasje) and 3 in Central Bosnia (Jajce-Dobretici, N.Travnik-Vitez-Busovaca-Kiseljak-Kresevo, Zepce)... --Čeha (razgovor) 14:28, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Greece, Albania and Kosovo
Why is the blue and red color in Albania spread in such a small part of the country in the map? At least, the orthodox part of Albania should be shown greater in the map, since Fier and Berat for example, have many Orthodox monasteries and the names of the people there shows the dominant religion in these counties. Also Korca and Pogradec, 2 more counties in Southeastern Albania, are of great importance for the Orthodox life of Albania, as the people there are some of the most religious people in the whole country, and the majority of them are Orthodox. So, the red color in the country should have en end in parallel with the line of the greek-macedonian borders... As for Greece, the prefecture of Thrace has a significant number of Muslim people, which means that a pinch of green color should be put at least in the north of the district shown in the map... And also the Roman Catholics make up 1/10 of Kosovo's religious people. Some pinches of blue color should also exist in the map in the territory of Kosovo... —Preceding unsigned comment added by FabioAbazaj (talk • contribs) 12:29, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

One fourth of Albania is Orthodox. The southern part. Known as North Epirus, made up of ethnic Greeks. --76.210.239.183 (talk) 01:15, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Tibetian Buddhism
There is no Tibetian Buddhism in Southrussia north of the kaukasus region. Please edit correct.--89.13.111.210 (talk) 18:53, 29 November 2009 (UTC) Der Hans aus Deutschland.
 * According to our article on Kalmyk people, it is indeed a popular religion there. — Æµ§œš¹  [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 22:43, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

England is not a Protestant country, the Church of England, and the Anglican Communion do not regard themselves as - nor are they Protestant.
England is not a Protestant country, the Church of England, and the Anglican Communion do not regard themselves as - nor are they Protestant. England should be categorized separately from the Protestant Churches and the Roman Catholic Church, though it shares most aspects of the latter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.224.109.148 (talk) 17:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Kosovo - The top 1/3 of the Province of Kosovo is Eastern Orthodox as well as a large chunk in the middle. Good job on the map though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.222.97.164 (talk) 09:46, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Atheist
Can someone make a new map mentioning the percentage of atheists in the map?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:23, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Please stop making WP:POINTy edits here. Mathsci (talk) 19:53, 7 April 2010 (UTC) I'm just asking if someone could make a map for the atheist percentage.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC) I seriously fail to see what's so wrong about Zjarri's request, and frankly, I'd like to voice the same concern. Namely, that some countries- like Czechia, Albania and Estonia- are if anything, primarily atheistic, and yet this is not noted clearly in the section and the map can thus be misleading. I know that it is noted elsewhere, but the view, for example, of Albania as a "Muslim country" is incorrect (even if you're going to say "historically Muslim" its wrong, Albania was mostly Catholic for a long time and Catholicism's roots go much deeper), and it, as well as others, are advanced by such a map. --Yalens (talk) 16:09, 16 April 2010 (UTC) There is nothing wrong, except that this isn't the place to request maps. The proper place is at Wikipedia:Graphic_Lab/Map_workshop. --dab (𒁳) 13:27, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Copied this from the talk ethnic groups page - clear example of how readers (perceive) the map to be misleading. So what to do about this ? Ruud64 (talk) 22:24, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

yet another inaccuracy : Estonia
The largest religious faith in Estonia is the Evangelical Lutheranism as shown on the map, with around 14 % however just behind in size is Eastern Orthodox (14 %). According to the census of 2000, there were about 152,000 Lutherans and 143,000 Orthodox Christians, rather a neglictable difference. The large majority are actually those without a religion>> 50 %..Why is the total country shown as protestant? Where is the data to back this up ? Why is Estonia not shown as being not religious ? Or if the non religious majority does not count why not as partly orthodox / partly protestant. And which part if protestant and which part is not ? Ruud64 (talk) 19:45, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

1939
It would be nice to do a map of this in 1939, showing Siliesia Pomeriania and east Prussia as Lutheren.--J intela (talk) 10:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * and while were at it 1914 showing larg parts of anatolia as orthodox and armenian christian--J intela (talk) 10:01, 30 October 2011 (UTC)