File talk:Joyce C Hall.jpg

Fair use rationale
There is no fair use rationale for this image in Hallmark Holiday or Sweetest Day. In regards to Hallmark Holiday, it is a disparaging term coined by external sources and doesn't denote that Hallmark actually had any involvment in the holiday. It is original research to suggest such and there is no faire use rationale here. Similarly with Sweetest Day, the fair use rationale is based on an WP:OR reasoning by the uploader. There is no clear rationale for having this picture in that article because there is no clear connection between this person and the observance. Using it in the Hallmark Cards and Joyce Hall articles would meet fair use.--Isotope23 14:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Isotope23 this image is fair use for all 4 articles. Hallmark clearly promotes Sweetest day and other Hallmark holidays more than anyone else by printing false statements or verisimilitudes on the backs of MILLIONS of Hallmark Sweetest Day cards every year. This is just an ongoing observable fact, not original research in any way. Your selective reasoning on this issue is astounding! Miracleimpulse 14:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No... it's not. Sorry Miracleimpulse. but as I stated above Hallmark != Hallmark holiday other than the fact that it uses the name Hallmark.  The fact that Hallmark sells Sweetest Day cards also does not confer a fair use rationale any more so than it would allow you to spam that picture into Halloween, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day or any of the other myriad of observances they sell cards for.  The connection between these two things is still more WP:OR on your part.--Isotope23 14:53, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * As evidence of the strong WP:OR here I submit this text you added to the image when you linked it in Hallmark holiday:
 * "Joyce C. Hall, founder of Hallmark Cards, co-creator of Hallmark Holidays such as Sweetest Day."
 * Find me one reliable source that suggests that Joyce C. Hall was in any way involved in the creation of Sweetest Day. This doesn't even jibe with your own earlier contentions that Sweetest Day was started by the Cleveland 12.  Sorry Miracleimpulse, you can't just make things up and then use it as a fair use rationale.--Isotope23 15:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Isotope23 in October of 2006 Hallmark printed and sold tens of MILLIONS of Sweetest Day cards with highly deceptive verisimilitudes about the origins of Sweetest Day printed right on the back of every card. Anyone can observe this; it happens every year. It is not original research to point out the obvious: everyone knows that Sweetest Day is a Hallmark holiday, so this is no new synthesis on anything. Meanwhile, the Sweetest Day article looks like someone ate the Bill Lubinger article and a couple of Hallmark Sweetest Day cards and puked it up all over a Wikipedia page. Why don't you use that new mop you've got and help clean up the Sweetest Day article. You could start by removing all statements that are sourced to promotional websites like Retail Confectioners International. Just a suggestion. Miracleimpulse 15:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact is that HBK mythology (which I know you like to call a verisimilitude) appears on the back of Hallmark Cards is irrelevant. The issue here is twofold. First, suggesting that Joyce C. Hall was in some way involved in creating the concept of "Hallmark holidays" is simply not verifiable or sourced and it is highly unlikely given that the concept of a "Hallmark holiday" is a diparaging term apparently invented in fairly recent history.  Second, suggesting that Joyce C. Hall was somehow involved in creating Sweetest Day is simply not sourced, reliably or unreliably.  The fact that they market cards with a story that may or may not be true on the back still doesn't justify usage of an image of the founder of Hallmark in the Sweetest Day article any more than it would be appropriate to put a picture of Steve Jobs in the article on Best Buy because they sell Apple computers and iPods.  If you want to suggest this link on your own website, have at it... but there is no justification for it here.  Sweetest Day = Hallmark Holiday = Joyce C. Hall is not a sound syllogism.
 * On your other point, while I'm aware you don't like the current state of the Sweetest Day article, but it is probably the best, most WP:NPOV, and balanced version of that article that has ever existed at that namespace. The sources are adequate.  Though I suspect you will disagree, even the statements from RCI are not extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary sources and they are clearly attributed so any reader can make their own decision.  Heck, HBK has been reduced to exactly 1 sentence at this point.  The strong presence of the Lubinger article is because at this time that is the best, most reliable source that has been provided.  You seem to enjoy doing research on this topic so maybe you will come across more sources in the future that can be incorporated into the article in an NPOV way.  Besides, you should be happy that last year at least a few newpapers took notice of the Wikipedia article and reported a different story than the usual song and dance about Sweetest Day.--Isotope23 15:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use guidelines are pretty clear in this case, irrespective of anyone's personal opinion (fetishization, obsession, whatever) with Sweetest Day. Not a dog 21:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)