File talk:MichiganIndianTribes.svg

I removed this from the Michigan article as it conflicts with virtually everything said there about the locations and tribes. What sources were used to create this? What time period does it represent? Rmhermen (talk) 20:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I have tried but can't wrap my head around this one. I don't know of any evidence that the Erie (of whom we know little) were ever in Michigan. Perhaps the Neutrals but we know very little of them. I don't know that the Menomini were ever that widespread. At the time the Ojibwa/Chippewa were limited to a small region of Michigan (and I am not sure that it was that region shown) you would have found Fox, Sac, Assegun, Mascouten, and perhaps Kickapoo and Ottawa in the lower peninsula. By the time the Miami were in the position shown, the Wyandotte should be in the Detroit region (not to mention the mish-mash of settled Indians around Fort Detroit and the Sault.) Rmhermen (talk) 17:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * This is a curious image. You can't have distinct boundaries.  Also, you have to qualify the map with the common calendar year.  If you're giving such prominent exposure to the Menomini on this map, first, you need to say that it is the assumed population distribution about the year 800.  Next, you need to extend the Menomini territory southward such that they are also located north of the Manistee River and west of Black River.  The areas shown as Ojibwa/Chippewa ought to say Mandwe, while Isle Royale ought to be marked as Cree.  Mandwe areas should go as far east as Escanaba River, but with Menomini overlapping westward to Ontonagon River.  Likewise, the LP portion of the Menomini would be an overlap with the Sac (currently marked as Potawatomi).  While the Sac were found along all of the LP Michigan, the Miami were found as far north as the Kalamazoo River and River Raisin.  Meanwhile, the Wea were located east of the Shiawassee, along the eastern LP, and east of St. Joseph River of the Maumee River.  The Neutrals hugged Lake Erie, so you can make a broad assumption that their overlapping territory covering roughly a 45-mile buffer about the Lake.  CJLippert (talk) 18:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * For the time period of the groups listed by Rmhermen, try sometime about the year 1300. CJLippert (talk) 19:07, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The original map - Early Indian Tribes, Culture Areas, and Linguistic Stocks - was prepared by William C. Sturtevant, Curator of North American Ethnology in the U.S. National Museum, Smithsonian Institution, for the Smithsonian Institution in the late 1960s. In fact, the same map is referenced on the Indigenous languages of the Americas Wikipedia page. The map I created is a copy of the original. I am not going to argue for the inclusion of the map on the Michigan page. If you want it gone, fine. Phizzy (talk) 00:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That source suffers from at least 3 difficulties. First it is based on information as much as 65 years old, secondly it does not refer to a specific time period - other than the vague indication "early". Third but most important it it not a map of tribe locations but a map of linguistic family distributions. The sample tribe names are spread over it in sometimes overlapping but not clearly indicated areas. This occurs once in Michigan where both Mascouten and Pottawatomi are listed in the same deliniated area but is more common in other regions of the map. Rmhermen (talk) 14:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That map do have problems. The northeastern areas represent population distribution as recorded by the Jesuit Relations (mid 1600's), but if we follow the US-Canadian boundaries, with Michigan to North Dakota, we see a time shift from the mid 1600's to the early 1800 as we go westward.  Also, where it says "Potawatomi" is not quite correct as it ought to say Council of Three Fires (which Potawatomi are a member)(if we go by people) or Anishinaabe language (if we go by language), and already by the time period of the Jesuit Relations, Potawatomi were well on the decline, Ottawa were at their peak and the Ojibwa were just ramping up in regional economic imprint... so even linguistically, the area was definitely Anishinaabe language area, but it wouldn't necessarily be the Potawatomi language.  The heart of the matter is that you have to indicate the time period.  If there were major population shift (as was definitely the case between 1600's and 1800's), you should also show arrows of which direction the population moved.  A good Manitoba example for the Ojibwa, etc., can be found at http://www.mhs.mb.ca/docs/transactions/3/indianmigrations.shtml CJLippert (talk) 18:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)