Help talk:IPA/Polish

Slender IPA palatalizations
I checked on Polish wiktionary that ɡʲ, kʲ and xʲ (all before i for g, k and (c)h) are literally the true IPAs on every letter are, and , all of which are actually correct. Check it for reference. ApprenticeFan work 11:04, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Both $⟨⟩$ as well as $⟨⟩$ are correct transcriptions. There's nothing wrong with using the latter set, as long as you clearly state that these symbols represent post-palatal sounds (unless you're talking about something else - I'm not sure I understand you.) Peter238 (talk) 12:23, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * There was a discussion about that a while back. The distinction between the two is too subtle to call it anything more than arbitrary. The decision to use one set or another is, AFAIK, mostly convention. — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 14:10, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought that the distinction between those was nothing more than arbitrary. After all, $⟨⟩$ says nothing about the amount of palatalization nor its exact phonetic realization. Peter238 (talk) 09:17, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Phonetically speaking, yes. For dorsal consonants, $⟨⟩$ tends to be used to reflect an advancement in the place of articulation forward toward the hard palate. It's not quite a "secondary" co-articulation like it is for labial or even coronal consonants. But there might be phonological, dialectal, historical, and even practical reasons to use one or another. — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 21:32, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, it'd be a good idea to use $⟨⟩$ instead of $⟨⟩$. They're a bit easier to write and all descriptions of the phonology of Polish that I'm aware of analyze to be unambiguously phonemic along with  (the distinction between  and  is described as non-sibilant vs. sibilant). Plus, it's $⟨⟩$, not $⟨⟩$ that are used by Jassem (2003) and Gussmann (2007).


 * Other soft consonants such as etc. do occur phonetically, but sources disagree on their phonemic status, which depends on whether you analyze  to be a separate phoneme like Rocławski (1976) or an allophone of  like Gussmann (2007). Both analyses make some sense by the way. Mr KEBAB (talk) 05:47, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Suggestions - Remove allophones
I think this article should mention phonemes, not allophonic variants which appear when a particular sound is followed by a specific sound. Specifically: 1) I'd remove the reference to `ɣ' in the `niechby' example. It's a voiced variant of `x'. 2) Similarly, I'd remove the palatalised xʲ in the 'hiacynt' example. Same as before, it's an allophone of plain `x' before a /i/ sounds. But it's the same phoneme. No need to complicate matters here; English too has this allophony in words such as `hard' and `huge' but in broad transcription the initial sound should be transcribed as /h/ in both cases. 3) Remove `ŋ'. It's a variant of 'n' before k/g (and not all speaker use this variant, anyway). 4,5) Remove palatalised k and g (examples Gienek and kierowca). I think you can very well use the /gjenek/ and /kjerowtsa/ transcriptions.

One can and should mention these allophonic variants in the notes, but in my opinion not in the main table. — L0rents (talk) 13:09, 6 June 2017
 * That's not what is done in case of other languages. We use a semi-narrow or broad phonetic transcription in these guides. Plus, IPA written inside the IPA-pl template is enclosed within phonetic brackets. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:16, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Suggestions - nasal vowels
Converning the nasal vowels ę ą, personally I don't like using the French-like ɛ̃ and ɔ̃. Of course it's a matter of convention, but I think those simbols are misleading. All modern analysis of the Polish nasal sounds say they are dipthongs with a first, non-nasal part which is /ɔ/ for ą and /ɛ/ for ę followed by a nasal glide w̃. So I'd prefer seeing kęs as /kɛw̃s/ and są as /sɔw̃/. I think it's much more accurate. For beginners learning Polish, I think it's also okay to suggest as an approximation to lose the nasality and substitute w̃ with `wn', so that the words are pronounced kełns and sołn. As to the English description, I don't like much the reference to French vin and son; these words sounds very different. Nevertheless, it's difficult to describe in words these sounds using only English sounds. Examples from Portuguese might be more accurate, but probably not really usefull for English speakers. — L0rents (talk) 13:09, 6 June 2017
 * French nasal vowels certainly don't sound "very different" but only somewhat different. Plus, the column is already called "English approximation". As to whether we should change to, I'm not sure. I think it'd be a good idea. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:16, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:17, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

palatalization
why is ɡʲ, kʲ, and xʲ listed but bʲ, dʲ, fʲ, lʲ, mʲ, pʲ, rʲ, tʲ, vʲ, wʲ not listed? LICA98 (talk) 06:49, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * It's my understanding that these consonants don't exist in Polish. There are a number of these that would be transcribed as, etc (that is, as a consonant cluster with ). But definitely isn't a thing in Polish. — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]  16:46, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * That's not correct. There's no (and most probably no  either) in Polish, but  (I hope I've listed all of them) occur allophonically before, some of them only in loanwords such as Toshiba . They may be regarded as phonemes only if you consider  to be an allophone of . Then,  must also be regarded as a phoneme, but that symbol just tells you that the correct phonetic realization of the following vowel is  instead of . Words such as weekend are pronounced , with a fully hard  and front . The same applies to . Mr KEBAB (talk) 05:53, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that the soft/hard pairing with was between  and . What words would  appear in? — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]  21:21, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * As I said, there's no in Polish. There's  (note the slashes) when you regard  as an allophone of  (so ). Then,  is  (as in weekend) and  is  (as in łyk). Phonetically, that consonant is always hard regardless of the following vowel. Poles can't pronounce French  and typically substitute  for it, which is another proof that there's no phonetic  in Polish. Mr KEBAB (talk) 17:04, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm not understanding. It sounds like you're saying there are analyses of Polish phonology where there are two phonemes, and, but the two are phonetically identical. That sounds nonsensical. What am I missing here? — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]  17:07, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
 * As in Russian, can be analyzed as an independent phoneme or as an allophone of . The transcription  tells you about the backness of the following close vowel. Phonetically, the consonant itself is always hard. Mr KEBAB (talk) 17:12, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
 * To put it another way, you can write or  but not  as that leads to loss of important information.  is redundant and so also a bad transcription. Mr KEBAB (talk) 17:29, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but that still sounds like nonsense. There is no analysis of Russian that posits two phonetically identical phonemes. I've never heard of that anywhere for any language.
 * If anything, it sounds like must be analyzed as a separate phoneme, since it would otherwise require such absurdities to make sense. — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]  19:06, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
 * You're being too dismissive.


 * I've checked Gussmann (2007) (who does consider to belong to the same phoneme ) and on page 29 he transcribes weekend as . If there's any palatalization at all, it's so inaudible that I just can't detect it. On page 4, he says that the palatalized quality of  is so negligible that he chooses to transcribe it . It's probably the same with . There's a very small phonetic difference between it and . Mr KEBAB (talk) 20:16, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
 * That's a bit of selective reading. Here's the transcription in context:
 * "Another relevant phonotactic observation concerning is that it cannot be followed by the vowel but may be followed by . This restriction holds for the native vocabulary, e.g. łys-y  'bald', zł-y  'bad', but it also extends to recent loans; thus weekend, originally pronounced  with the strongly non-Polish combination, is heard more and more often now as . On the other hand, the lateral  cannot be followed by  but readily combines with, e.g.: liść  'leaf', dol-i  'fate, gen. sg.'."
 * So is not only considered "non-Polish" (Perhaps a foreign affective pronunciation akin to English speakers pronouncing a uvular rhotic in loanwords from French) but its pronunciation is deprecated for a pronunciation more in keeping with the phonotactic constraints that are normal for Polish. — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]  23:42, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
 * It's selective because the bit about actually is nonsensical (apart from the fact that  is non-Polish, which is obviously true). That pronunciation is non-standard. See,  and . Mr KEBAB (talk) 05:16, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Interesting. So the preference for among Polish language policymakers is akin to English Standard bearers preferring a uvular r in French loanwords or a tap/trill pronunciation in Spanish-language names like Graciela.
 * Going back to the original question, should we include the other palatalized consonants? — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 14:06, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but that's not correct either. Gussmann is simply exaggerating with his 'more and more'. If there ever was such a tendency, it's long gone now. The only neutral pronunciation is, carries humorous/dialectal (of traditional Warsaw dialect specifically, like lypa for lipa) connotations. Ask any other native speaker and he'll tell you the same. It's probably similar to pronouncing the English word pronunciation with  - it's just not standard in any way.


 * I'd say I'm ambivalent, but on second thought, no. There's no reason to complicate this guide. Mr KEBAB (talk) 14:27, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Unless you didn't mean to say that the pronunciation is artifically standard (it's not, it's actually standard), then forget about the first part of my post. Mr KEBAB (talk) 14:28, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * If I'm understanding correctly, then, the pronunciation with is standard, but the guy who thinks that  and  are allophones of one phoneme is twisting the data to fit with his preconceived notion about phonotactic constraints.
 * What about the other palatalized sounds? We've got them for Russian and if there are analyses that peg them as independent phonemes, that makes me think they are worthy of inclusion in our transcriptions. — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 15:48, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Give me a few days to check my sources thoroughly. Mr KEBAB (talk) 10:01, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm very late, I know, but [rʲ] most definitely occurs in Polish. In fact, it's one of the most common palatalised consonants in Polish. Refer to the popular (meme) phrase "Polska górą" ("Polska gurom). In the rendition of the populariser of the phrase Mariusz Pudzianowski - to be found here: - the "r" in "górą" is palatalised. Many native speakers palatalise their "r"s before most vowels in a similar manner.
 * On a different note, these symbols: tʃʲ, dʒʲ, ʃʲ, ʒʲ are equivalent to tɕ, dʑ, ɕ, and ʑ, respectively, and the latter set is already featured on this page, so your addition of these extra four symbols is redundant. Rhosnes (talk) 23:56, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Tiebar?
Affricate symbols in Template:IPAc-pl are with tiebars. LoveVanPersie (talk) 10:11, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * We can remove them. Mr KEBAB (talk) 06:06, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

why are there so many differences between transcriptions on Polish wiki and English wiki?
for example:

vowels before n, m are transcribed as nasal in Polish and non-nasal in English (zãmɛk / zamɛk)

ę, ą when they get n or m sound are transcribed as nasal in Polish but in English non-nasal (rɛ̃ŋka/rɛŋka)

and when they don't in Polish there is /w̃/ but in English just nasalized letter (kɛ̃w̃s/kɛ̃s)

/c/, /ɟ/, /ç/ are transcribed /kʲ/, /gʲ/, /xʲ/

consonants before j are palatalized in Polish but not English (pɔlʲit͡sʲja/pɔlʲit͡sja)

ia, ie are transcribed with /ʲj/ in Polish but without j in English (bʲjawɨ/bʲawɨ) LICA98 (talk) 23:32, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

You're right, the trascriptions used e.g. on the Polish wikidictionary (Wikisłownik) are different from the ones used on English Wikipedia. As far as I could determine, the transcription on Wikisłownik were produced automatically using a computer program which uses the system used in a certain reference [Ostaszewska, Tambor - Fonetyka i fonologia współczesnego języka polskiego, PWN, 2000]; in turn, this reference (a short booklet written for university lectures and which doesn't contain any original research) is based (if I'm not mistaken) on Słownik wymowy polskiej. Red. M. Karaś, M. Madejowa, Warszawa 1977. Among other things, in this system, ALL vowels are marked as nasalised (with a tilde) when followed by [n], [m], [ŋ]. Also, all consonants are marked as palatalized (with the j superscript) when followed by [j] or by [i]. Because these differences between the transcriptions in English/Polish Wikipedia are systematic, the two transcription systems carry the same amount of information and therefore amount to different but functionally equivalent conventions. However, if you ask me, this Ostaszewska-Tambor system is stupidly complicated, at odds with the IPA transcriptions in any other language I know, confusing (the ã in zamek has little to do with French nasal ã in, e.g., ans) and is very unsuitable for transcriptions in a dictionary. It makes things complicated in a totally unnecessary manner, and if I didn't know it comes from a printed book I'd think it was created by a crackpot. This in just my opinion, of course, but I'm happy English wikipedia uses a more sensible system of transcription.

L0rents (talk) 01:08, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Dialectical pronunciations
Should there be a footnote about /ɦ/, which exists as a separate phoneme in some dialects? (I do not propose that we transcribe it, of course.) Double sharp (talk) 14:43, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Would it be confusing for anyone if we didn't? — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 18:13, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

labial palatalized consonants
My source (cited in the Polish phonology page, Swan 2002) says labial palatalized consonants are phonemes, not allophones, and it makes more sense as there are minimal pairs like pędź - pięć, zdrowe - zdrowie, bały - biały, mały - miały, and a near minimal pair szwie - szwed. So I suggest adding these to this page. JeanneAymonier (talk) 05:34, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Can you possibly chime in on this (and on these edits to Polish phonology)? It seems the phonemic status of palatalized labials depends on the status of [ɨ] in the given analysis, but I can't make heads or tails. Nardog (talk) 20:57, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that, phonetically, these were sequences (e.g. or ) so that the contrast between mały miały could be something like  and . If we've got sources that say that they are e.g.  at the phonetic level, I'm game for changing how we transcribe Polish, even if  is more frequently analyzed as . — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]  22:52, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't have sources other than the one cited in the Polish phonology page, but the pronunciation for the word Mjanma is /ˈmjan.ma/, while the pronunciation for the word miały is /ˈmʲa.wɨ/ on Wiktionary. Same with Pjongjang, wjazd, objazd, etc., so it seems that /mj/ and /mʲ/ are phonetically different. JeanneAymonier (talk) 23:46, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I have found out that Polish Reference Grammar By Maria Z. Brooks distinguishes /m/ and /m'/(palatalized m) etc. as phonemes. JeanneAymonier (talk) 00:38, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I have listened to http://polfon.upol.cz/index.php? and I've figured out that ki+vowel is pronounced [kʲ] but pi+vowel is pronounced [pʲj] so I have changed my opinion. I'll revert the edit in the Polish phonology. page=homeJeanneAymonier (talk) 01:58, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I know I'm very late to the discussion, but I feel like this is important. As a native Russian speaker, I can say that, in this edit that you made, all of the added audio samples bar one contained labial palatalised consonants. I don't care what the linguists say, but as someone whose native language distinguishes palatalised and iotified consonants at a phonemic level, I can assure you that the sound [j] does not exist in any of those audio samples. I will also say that, in Polish, there exists a significant difference in pronunciation between most male and most female speakers; male speakers indeed tend to palatalise only 'g', 'k', and 'n', but female speakers tend to palatalise all consonants, including even [ts] and [dz] (see this page, where female speakers realise the letter "ć" as [tsʲ] or [c], while the male speaker realises it as [t͡ɕ]). However, it seems like this help page follows exclusively the male pronunciation, so it might be worth keeping the page as is for consistency's sake. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 12:50, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Since you are part of the discussion, I thought I'd ping you as well. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 13:08, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

amigo - "g" as "h" !!??
Is this done??

--213.76.134.90 (talk) 22:19, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Intervocalic in Spanish varies between a voiced velar fricative and a velar approximant. It's a fair approximation. Sol505000 (talk) 11:15, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

is 's' really a voiceless dental fricative?
Copying what I originally posted in the general wiki help page:

I noticed that in both pages for Polish ortography and phonology, (and I just found out, also on this very page) 's' in its usual value is linked to voiceless dental fricative, which sounds weird to me, as that sound shouldn't be in Polish at all and I'd have expected it to be a Voiceless alveolar sibilant instead.

I checked in the code for the page and it seems that the links are automatically generated, so I didn't want to touch anything... Could someone with a bit more knowledge in the field tell me more, and correct either me or the link?

Thanks!--Stefano thf (talk) 14:57, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * No, the links are incorrect. Even if they are technically dental or denti-alveolar in articulation, the links they are going to is a class of sounds that have no sibilance, which is not true of this sound. — Æµ§œš¹  [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 03:17, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for noticing this. Fixed in Module:IPA symbol/data, though the redirects and anchors are all over the place so they may also need refining. Nardog (talk) 05:13, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, are sibilant fricatives, which means that they're articulated with clenched teeth and the blade tongue approaching the back of the upper front teeth so that the tip of the tongue rests on the lower front teeth and does not protrude. Their being dental mostly means that they have no positional allophones approaching, which they have in some non-Slavic languages (e.g. English and especially Dutch), at least when it comes to fricatives. And before you ask, yes, from the standpoint of someone who speaks a language with dental sibilants natively, the alveolar fricatives of English do have a slight  flavor to them, especially in contact with  (interestingly, Dutch has the same allophone after , though it's even more -like). You can also hear it in the way  blend into the following vowel. The transition is more dull in English. This is more audible in the case of English apical alveolar plosives as compared to the Polish/Russian/Spanish laminal denti-alveolar plosives, and I'm *not* talking about aspiration here. In Dutch, you can hear it in every position as their sibilants are way more Greek/Spanish (i.e. way more dull and probably slightly more weakly fricated) than they are English/German. Sol505000 (talk) 21:51, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

[n.n]–[nː] contrast?
I was surprised to hear two released [n]'s in [jɔˈanna] in the audio sample at Joanna Jędrzejczyk. Samples on Forvo indeed mostly pronounce it that way, as do samples at René Goscinny, Anna Fotyga, and Devana. But not the one at Skarżysko-Kamienna, which in fact has ⟨nː⟩ in the transcription. Is the presence or absence of a mid-release in [nn] mandatory in any context? What constraints (phonemic, allophonic, morphological, etc.) dictate whether it can occur? Does any other consonant exhibit a similar behavior? Nardog (talk) 10:48, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Any clue? Nardog (talk) 06:49, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't quote me on that, but the mid-release is probably just a careful pronunciation, so that Anna is in normal speech and  in careful speech, or some careful speech at least (it likely remains  in less stressed positions). I'm not aware of any sources that deal with the issue, though. Maybe ask on Polish WP? Sol505000 (talk) 07:01, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. So your impression is that this is entirely allophonic, correct? Or can you think of a situation where the mid-release is not allowed? (Might Kamienna be one?) Nardog (talk) 07:08, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * It has to be. There may be situations where the mid-release is preferred, maybe at word boundaries. It's also the only context where and (in one standard of pronunciation)  arise, as in pan Jacek  'Mr. Jack' and niech jedzą  (or voiceless: ) 'let them eat'.
 * Try panno 'miss' (voc. sing.) vs. pan Norbert 'Mr. Norbert' for a near-minimal pair. The later might contain a more frequent mid release, but we need a source to confirm that. Panno is normally, AFAIK (apart from the fact that the vocative case is becoming archaic in Polish).
 * I can't think of any situation where the mid-release or the lack of release delayed release is not allowed. They seem to be in a (near-)complete free variation. Sol505000 (talk) 07:27, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * One more thing: if the genitive plural form of panna were *pann it'd likely contain a mandatory mid release. But it's not, it's panien . The svarabhakti vowel (if it is indeed that) might have originated as a kind of fortition of the mid release (there are related processes in other Slavic languages, e.g. Slovene) and the palatal nasal could simply be a result of the folowing mid front vowel. The latter is likely as the words starting with seem to be loanwords for the most part:  (the phonetic  followed by, as in nędzny etc. is another story). Sol505000 (talk) 08:06, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Possible Mistake
How is Polish “r” like American English “tt” in “better?” It’s more like the “rr” in Spanish “perro.” 100.14.50.53 (talk) 01:03, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Polish phonology says /r/ is predominantly a tap, citing studies. Nardog (talk) 07:40, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Regarding Polish 'r', and whether or not it is a 'flapped' quasi-'t' sound: listening to the audio sample given on the very table we are examining, it is very clearly given as an 'R' sound, sounding to my ears as though it IS formed forward, not guttural, perhaps somewhat like the 'R' is generally formed (tongue approximate front palate) in Italian. Granted, I do not have access to the studies you cite. Is the audio example in error, or a dialect? FrankMJohnson (talk) 16:51, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I was equally puzzled as I couldn't figure out how what I heard in the sample matched what is (at this time) described as the T in "American English atom". Unless a lot of Americans say Arom and I somehow missed it, the recorded pronunciation and the written guide do not agree. 2601:147:C180:E270:7D03:73D9:52CC:FD78 (talk) 03:49, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * And the R in the Wikipedia recording of the Polish pronunciation of Warsaw and Krakow both seem to support some R variant much more than any T pronunciation. See https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/0/01/Pl-Warszawa.ogg/Pl-Warszawa.ogg.mp3 and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/4/47/Pl-Krak%C3%B3w.ogg/Pl-Krak%C3%B3w.ogg.mp3 .2601:147:C180:E270:7D03:73D9:52CC:FD78 (talk) 03:53, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * See Flapping. Nardog (talk) 03:55, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Placement of ɕ
I know that the symbol for ɕ is derivative of "c" but the placement in the chart is confusing. Every other triple is placed together, I think it would be better placed between s and ʂ. To that end, I think the voiceless affricate triple should be t͡s, t͡ɕ, t͡ʂ. I don't know if the standard is to organize them by which latin character they're derived from but I think it would read a lot better organized that way. Krupaz (talk) 17:41, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
 * These keys are for readers who clicked transcriptions in articles to figure out what the symbols mean. The alphabetical ordering helps them quickly find the information they're looking for. Nardog (talk) 03:09, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Tie-bars
I think that we should remove the tie-bars and transcribe the affricates with simple ⟨dz dʑ dʐ ts tɕ tʂ⟩. Per Talk:Polish phonology, we can differentiate them from the stop-fricative sequences as ⟨dz dʑ dʐ ts tɕ tʂ⟩ for the former and ⟨dʱz dʱʑ dʱʐ tʰs tʰɕ tʰʂ⟩ for the latter, both in Polish and in other languages with such contrasts. The syllable break obviously won't work here as both czysta and trzysta  have two syllables and initial stress.

Or let's just use the length mark for the clusters:. Sol505000 (talk) 01:25, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Is there any source (preferably reference work) that does either? Nardog (talk) 11:20, 14 January 2023 (UTC)