Help talk:Referencing for beginners/Archive 1

Alternative system
I've reverted the addition to "Alternative system". Please let's keep this simple and not overload new editors. We'll be lucky if they get the simple system right. By all means start a new beginners' guide to the alternative system and link to it for those who want more details.  Ty  17:36, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

newlines in reference
I see some editors insert a newline immediately after the starting  and another newline immediately before the ending   of a reference. I see that other people are using WP:REFB as justification to delete those newlines.

Does this make any visible difference to our readers?

Is the "space" mentioned in WP:REFB only talking about space that actually makes a visible difference to our readers? --68.0.124.33 (talk) 13:24, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It doesn't make a difference on my browser, but different browsers perform differently, so it's best to layout the way you want something to appear. It's not the common practice to insert a space after the starting code and before the ending code. I'm not sure REFB was a justification, so much as a helpful link for guidance.  Ty  00:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Um
This page, unfortunately, told the beginners some "wrong" answers. For example, it demanded use of WP:Footnotes, and contradicted WP:REFPUNC. I've corrected these errors, so that editors will know that other styles are permitted, without complicating the page by adding instructions on how to use the other styles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:13, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Recent discussion about this page
(moved from my user talk page)--Tomwsulcer (talk) 00:15, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

The page has been in use in its present form for two years with minor tweaks by several editors, who have not changed its overall approach. Your edit has made it into a very different guide. I guess this is acceptable per WP:BRD, but you have to accept that after B you are likely to get R. You changed a much greater amount of work than just two hours' worth. I find the new version very confusing. It uses the word "shell", for example, without even explaining what the word means, and it is not one that will be generally understood.

It also goes into how to get references with this list of sources:
 * (site:newsweek.com OR site:post-gazette.com OR site:usatoday.com OR site:washingtonpost.com OR site:time.com OR site:reuters.com OR site:economist.com OR site:miamiherald.com OR site:sfgate.com OR site:chicagotribune.com OR site:nytimes.com OR site:wsj.com OR site:usnews.com OR site:msnbc.com OR site:nj.com OR site:theatlantic.com OR site:businessweek.com OR site:crainsnewyork.com OR site:CSMonitor.com OR site:cbsnews.com OR site:abcnews.com OR site:npr.org OR site:msnbc.com OR site:cnbc.com OR site:news.yahoo.com)

This is totally US-centric for a start, and a rather cumbersome approach. It's much easier to just search Google News or a dedicated news repository. But, more significantly, it introduces an unnecessary complexity to a guide whose purpose is to enable editors to use references and understand the formatting, not teach them how to find references in search engines.

The original said:
 * Make sure you put two single quotation marks round the title (to generate italics), rather than one double quote mark.

You changed it to:
 * Remember to italicize titles using double single-quote marks.

This compression does not stress the importance of two single quote marks, as the original does, but ends up with the juxtaposition of "double single", which is more likely to be misunderstood.

You say:
 * Overall the best format is yyyy-mm-dd. It avoids confusion.

It doesn't. 2010-09-10 for those not used to this format can mean either 9 October or 10 September. Normal US usage is 9/11, but normal UK usage is 11/9.

You've deleted the paragraph which links to the example of multiple references in use in an article. It is very useful for a new editor to be able to see the result in action.

These are just examples.

It may well be useful to teach editors how to find sources, but not in this guide. Do it properly and write a guide dedicated to that, so you can go into it in the necessary detail.

Likewise, if you think that the use of "shells" is the easiest way, then write a guide to explain their usage. The normal terminology is "template". The existing guide explains how to set up references without having to know about such templates, and I think this is far simpler to master. If you write one from a different approach and people prefer it, then it will gain general usage, and this is the real test.

 Ty  13:42, 3 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. You make some good points. Do you have any interest in working with me to improve this article? I suggest we take the best of both worlds. I agree with many of your comments like the problems with the (site:newsweek.com etc...) . I still think, however, that the "shell" or "reference template" or whatever we call it is the best, most powerful & versatile referencing tool. And we should focus on that. And, as much as possible, we should strive for simplicity in the sense of "less is more". I bet many nooBs take one look at this page, see how long it is, see turn-off words like "code", or struggle with many different considerations, and click out of the page. I don't understand why the top hatnote about administerships is there. And I don't think the "essay" tag applies.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 17:05, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I support anything that makes this simpler for the new reader, but not anything which introduces more things to learn, i.e. citation templates. These may work for you, but they still require another technical set of considerations for the new editor. I think the best solution is another help page, e.g. Citation templates for beginners which can be linked from the existing help page and give new editors that option if they want it.

If there is a more user-friendly way of putting things, e.g. "code", let's examine it. I think the best way is to find a specific point to address, propose a change on the article talk page and discuss it; and take one point at a time. When existing text has gained implicit consensus over a long period of time from users who have participated in it, change is not overnight.

A certain length in the guide cannot be avoided because various basic points have to be explained. The aim is to take the new editor through these points in simple steps.

 Ty  11:37, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Ty I see somewhat what you're saying, but I'd like to explain my position further, and I'm changing my own perspective from before, somewhat. You've been using Wikipedia now for several years, right? And you've probably been looking over the article Referencing for beginners for a while now. In your eyes, the article may not look complex since you know how to reference. But nooBs, looking at this article, are most likely intimidated. What's happened, over time, to this article, happens to most Wikipedia articles as you're well aware. As new issues crept up, new material was added, bit by bit, and the article lengthened to include ancillary (in my view) issues such as handling references that aren't online, Even the beginning is problematic in my view: explaining which references are good or suitable seems somewhat off-track, like about the Mt. Everest example; rather, what the reader probably wants to know is: how do I reference? They're probably already on board about which references are good. So a statement like "Any editor can remove unreferenced material" is unnecessary since readers already know that.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 16:27, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Here is the original version. It is simple enough. I think some material added since has not helped and could be removed/reworded. It is necessary to show how to reference material not online, as it often occurs. It is also necessary to use the Everest-type example, as it shows a basic mistake, which I have seen a lot. A lot of editors have never used references before and don't know this fundamental. This material was included because it was based on observation of mistakes made by (mostly new) editors. No, they are not "probably already on board", and they don't "already know that". They are "beginners" and know very little about wikipedia.  Ty  12:47, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * If the original purpose was to teach nooBs how to reference, in my view, that the extra added material hampered this purpose. The length of the article, itself, deters reading. It makes the subject look complicated. The word code looks intimidating as well as the word template. What I'm proposing is reducing this article to ONLY the really important must-know stuff about referencing. --Tomwsulcer (talk) 16:27, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


 * That is exactly what it does contain, at least in the original version.http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Referencing_for_beginners&oldid=180290240] If you have a better word for "code" and "template" (but not "shell" which is even more abstruse), then please suggest.  Ty  12:50, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * And, from my experience, the basic template or shell or construct or whatever we must call it, is the MOST useful, BEST, most VERSATILE referencing tool. It can fit every situation (online editing, offline editing). And it's basically SIMPLE to use once a reader gets the hang of it. Here it is, as you know:--Tomwsulcer (talk) 16:27, 4 January 2010 (UTC)




 * That's what the article should teach. The basic idea should be: fill in as many of the spaces to the right of the equals as possible. Stick it RIGHT AFTER the line being referenced. That's it. Lesson over. As the article title says, "for beginners". The rest of the article: let's CUT. Cut out discussion of italics, wikilinks, date formats, split-screen editing. Cut out the (site:newsweek.com OR...) stuff. These issues are covered elsewhere. Maybe we should even cut out the "repeated references" stuff too since it adds further complication. It's a technical issue that perhaps we can put in a daughter article. And let's cut the tag which isn't appropriate. And put one of those "This page in a nutshell" thingies on top. That's my suggestion for this page. Let me know what you think. But I think this issue is important, because a critical way in which almost all new volunteer editors fall flat on their faces is their inability to reference; their unreferenced stuff gets deleted, they quit.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 16:27, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Well write a guide to explain all that then. This one does something different. You are the only person who has raised an objection to this approach in two years. I disagree with you over the simplicity of using a citation template. It requires just as much explanation as the existing approach. A lot of people don't even know what a URL is. "Author" - some people will think this means the wiki editor. Obvious to you, but not to all. Etc etc. Here is your version: User:Tomwsulcer/my_sandbox_3. Well move it into project space so it is more visible and others can use it if they want. I don't think it's simpler and easier, but maybe others will.   Ty  12:58, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, will do, but I'm not saying my previous version was that great either, but what I'm saying is let's have one simple guide, but have daughter articles if users get confused, or else wikilinks to confusing terms. And you're right about people not knowing things like what "urls" mean, or that "author" means somebody in the NY Times, not themselves. What I think hampers all of us on Wikipedia is that, for the most part, we don't get feedback from readers, so we don't know how well this article does its job. You know how Amazon reviews has little buttons "Was this review helpful". I'd love that to come to Wikipedia. So, I'm guessing that the WP:Referencing for beginners is overly complex for nooBs but I'm not really sure, and you're right, we should weigh stuff carefully before making big changes. What I was wondering is: the shell above -- am I right that it will reference almost anything, or should it be expanded to include other fields (or shrunk if the fields are unnecessary like "quote=")? Need your thinking about this. I guess what I'm wondering is: is there some basic referencing mechanism which, once learned, can tackle almost every referencing task, and that works everywhere, making good inline (does "inline" mean: click it and boom you see the reference?) references? My thinking is that the above shell is this mechanism, but I'm open to the possibility that I'm mistaken. And if there's something better please tell me. I recently tried that reference-generator tool listed at the bottom of the article but I'm also used to my own system.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:58, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I have had positive feedback about this page, so I think it works as it is. Additionally, the material in it is specifically in response to faults made by new users. Instead of telling them individually the same thing, I put it in a help page, i.e. it is in response to real issues, not theoretical ones. I don't use citation templates, as I find them cumbersome, so I don't have advice on fields. WP:HELP pages don't usually have "in a nutshell" - that occurs on guideline/policy pages.  Ty  12:51, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Continuation of last section
(editing break for ease of use)

I'm proposing a vastly reduced, simplified version of this page here: Wikipedia talk:Referencing for beginners/sandbox. I cut out much stuff. The idea is to give only the information that nooBs really need. I even cut out the multiple citations using one reference; my thinking is that let's get users started referencing; if and when they need to learn how to do the multiple-citation-using-one-reference mechanism, they can find it in the more detailed articles. If readers need more more information, there are links pointing to more detailed articles like the Citations template. Wondering what people think?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 15:54, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Copied from User talk:Tyrenius:
 * So, what do you think about the proposed referencing for beginners article? I used your thinking plus expanded on mine, and offer a vastly trimmed version. Do you want to keep the current article, and have the reduced one be a daughter article? Or do you think we could put the new one in place of the old or is that too risky? And wondering about the technical aspects too, since I think you know more about this stuff than I do; like, is the proposed shell or template or whatever it is a good one.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 04:20, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

(end of copied material)

I do not think the proposed version is a suitable substitute for the existing version. I am strongly opposed to that. However, I think it is a good initiative, as there should be a simple explanation for users who prefer to use citation templates, and it should be self-contained on a separate page, with the two pages linking to each other, so users have a choice. Editors wishing to help a new user can point them to one or the other (or both). This choice is necessary, as reference formatting should follow the existing usage on a page.  Ty  13:03, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Sounds reasonable. I'll set it up. If you have any thoughts about naming let me know soon. My thinking of ideas for names is: "Reference simply quickly powerfully", "Referencing EZ method" "Referencing simple and fast", "Referencing how-to", "Referencing simplified", "How to reference almost anything", "How to reference (nutshell version)", "Referencing made simple". Or there are other possibilities. Any preferences?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:15, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * How about Referencing for beginners with citation templates. This ties it in with the existing page. The terminology "citation template" should be introduced, as users need to know it, or they will be confused, when other users refer to it. A shortcut could be WP:REFBC.  Ty  13:26, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Created daughter article Referencing for beginners with citation templates. Got sandbox page deleted as it's now red above. WP:REFBC sounds like a good shortcut page, but I'm not sure how these things work. Is it like a page with a redirect? So if someone types "REFBC" then they go to the REFBC page, but then get instantly redirected to the Referencing for beginners with citation templates page?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 15:36, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

List-defined references
This nice method from September 2009 is easy to learn. See a Norwegian article that uses it. (One can also use groups: See List-defined references-section under Footnotes.) Dugnad (talk) 07:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, but this page is to give new users a basic tool and avoid anything more sophisticated.  Ty  15:47, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Sure, and imho this method is simpler and better than what's currently tought, because it avoids long refs within the main text. Under Help:Footnotes it says: "As of September 2009, the cite software allows named references to be defined within the reference list rather than in the article text. This can make editing articles much easier, particularly on heavily cited sections." The group-option should of course not be included; I just mentioned it here. Dugnad (talk) 22:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)


 * That is, of course, your personal opinion and not shared by everyone or even the majority of editors. As such, there is nothing here that needs changing. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 06:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Names of newspapers
In the interests of making things as simple as possible for beginners, could we leave out the bit about wikiliking the names of the newspaper in a news citation? I think this is a refinement that is arguably often pointless and certainly never essential. I never do it myself. Stating the place of publication of the newspaper (if not included in its name) seems to me more important because that defines the source unambiguously. -- Alarics (talk) 13:26, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Is there any guidance elsewhere about this point? It is linked if a cite template is used, so one reason to keep it is consistency. It also helps to avoid confusion with similarly named journals.  Ty  14:26, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

space before &lt;ref&gt;
WP:REFB says to avoid spaces between the text and the &lt;ref&gt;, to avoid line wraps. That makes sense, but if you look at, at the line item for "Untitled Toy Story-based short" in the first table, depending on the window width IE8 will break between "short" and the reference. Firefox is OK; perhaps this is a bug in IE8. Jordan Brown (talk) 23:57, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

keep it simple
As somebody stated correctly that this advice should be as simple as possible: why the heck is there of the reference template; the template wiil handle placing it in the proper position within the citation:
 * becomes:
 * If you are editing a manually-inserted citation, then you need to add  to the citation, where   is the access date. Insert this at the very end of the reference, just before the  tag, with a space before it, and be sure to end it with a period:
 * becomes:
 * Be sure to use the date format used in the majority of the other references for the article when adding dates.
 * As for determining what the access date should be, you could review the edit history to determine when the citation was added, and use that date as the access date. This is excruciatingly difficult, however; I would recommend actually clicking on the link to the referenced url to verify the link is still "live" and insert the current date as the access date. If the link is not "live", try to find an archive of the web page and add that information to the citation.&mdash;D'Ranged 1 talk 02:03, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your help; however because I am a beginner would it be possible to have someone add them for me? Avario87 (talk)
 * A little housekeeping: When posting on talk pages in response to an earlier post, look at the previous post before yours. Notice how many colons the previous user put before their main comments and add one more to the first line of each paragraph of your response. Since I used one colon before my paragraphs, you would put two before yours. (I've edited your response accordingly.) The colon causes an indentation; this makes it easier to see where one user's comments left off and another's began. Each additional colon causes a further indentation. If you respond to this comment here, please add four colons before your reply to indent it a bit further to the right of my response.
 * Also, if you're responding to a specific editor's comments, adding the  (can also be written  ) template at the beginning of your response will alert that editor that you've added material for them to read. Just add their user name in place of  . (For more information, see Template:Reply to/doc.)
 * I am happy to help you learn how to edit; you will need to know if you are going to be a good editor at Wikipedia. However, I won't do the edits for you—this is a basic editing skill you need to learn—but I will be happy to check your work if you'd like. After a few tries, I'm sure you'll get the hang of it!
 * As an example, I took a look at the last edit you made to the Sally Kellerman article. It has a small mistake; it's easily rectified. When you copied the title of the article from the web page, the web site added some hidden text to the title that you then pasted into the citation template. Since it duplicates what is in the url parameter, you should just edit the title text to match what is visible on the web site:
 * shouldn't include the text above; all that's needed is:
 * If you'll check the way the reference displays in the References section, you'll see that
 * }
 * becomes a much easeir-to-read citation, with the title of the article linking to the web page:
 * Let me emphasize that you didn't do anything wrong—when you highlighted the title of the article to copy it, the web page you were on added the extra information to what you copied; you just needed to delete it from the title parameter before inserting the template. (If you don't want to scroll back and forth in the tool, go ahead and insert the citation and then edit it in the article.)
 * You might also want to get in the habit of populating the archiveurl and archivedate parameters for links you add. These fields are accessed by clicking at the bottom of the tool; for more information about how to archive websites, please read Help:Using the Wayback Machine. It's good practice to check the Wayback Machine to see if the site you're using as a citation is in its archives, you have the opportunity to add it if it isn't. This is extremely helpful down the road; web pages get moved and/or deleted frequently, and if that happens, when someone clicks on the link, they get an error message. It's much easier to add the sites you use to the Wayback Machine as you go than to try to find them years later, trust me! Help:Using the Wayback Machine gives very explicit instructions on how to use the Wayback Machine website; it even has a way for you to add clickable links to the links taskbar on your browser to get there easily.
 * Also, I want to document that I made some changes to my earlier response to you to clean up the formatting. The sense hasn't changed at all; it just takes up less space on the page now.
 * I haven't made the change I've illustrated here in the Sally Kellerman article itself; that would be a good first place for you to start massaging citation templates. If you like, please leave a note on my talk page and let me know about some citations to which you've added access dates; I'll be happy to look at your edits and give feedback. (It's better that you contact me there than making this thread any longer.) Happy editing, and thank you for wanting to get it right!&mdash;D'Ranged 1 talk 15:55, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
 * }
 * becomes a much easeir-to-read citation, with the title of the article linking to the web page:
 * Let me emphasize that you didn't do anything wrong—when you highlighted the title of the article to copy it, the web page you were on added the extra information to what you copied; you just needed to delete it from the title parameter before inserting the template. (If you don't want to scroll back and forth in the tool, go ahead and insert the citation and then edit it in the article.)
 * You might also want to get in the habit of populating the archiveurl and archivedate parameters for links you add. These fields are accessed by clicking at the bottom of the tool; for more information about how to archive websites, please read Help:Using the Wayback Machine. It's good practice to check the Wayback Machine to see if the site you're using as a citation is in its archives, you have the opportunity to add it if it isn't. This is extremely helpful down the road; web pages get moved and/or deleted frequently, and if that happens, when someone clicks on the link, they get an error message. It's much easier to add the sites you use to the Wayback Machine as you go than to try to find them years later, trust me! Help:Using the Wayback Machine gives very explicit instructions on how to use the Wayback Machine website; it even has a way for you to add clickable links to the links taskbar on your browser to get there easily.
 * Also, I want to document that I made some changes to my earlier response to you to clean up the formatting. The sense hasn't changed at all; it just takes up less space on the page now.
 * I haven't made the change I've illustrated here in the Sally Kellerman article itself; that would be a good first place for you to start massaging citation templates. If you like, please leave a note on my talk page and let me know about some citations to which you've added access dates; I'll be happy to look at your edits and give feedback. (It's better that you contact me there than making this thread any longer.) Happy editing, and thank you for wanting to get it right!&mdash;D'Ranged 1 talk 15:55, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I haven't made the change I've illustrated here in the Sally Kellerman article itself; that would be a good first place for you to start massaging citation templates. If you like, please leave a note on my talk page and let me know about some citations to which you've added access dates; I'll be happy to look at your edits and give feedback. (It's better that you contact me there than making this thread any longer.) Happy editing, and thank you for wanting to get it right!&mdash;D'Ranged 1 talk 15:55, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Same reference used more than once - suggested change of wording
Under "5 - Same reference used more than once", the instruction in the first line is not clear. I had to ask the Help Desk to explain it. I suggest changing the wording from:
 * "The first time a reference appears in the article, you can give it a simple name in the code"
 * to:
 * "The first time a reference appears in the article, you can give it any name in the code (as long as the name is kept short and does not include any numbers or symbols)".

--P123cat1 (talk) 08:54, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * But this would be incorrect. The name may include numbers, but should not be only numbers. The current text is correct; I think the example given makes it very clear. I'm not sure why you had a problem understanding it.&mdash; D'Ranged 1  talk  10:22, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I will leave it then. To me it is not clear whether "a simple name" should be some name from the citation. For it not to be linked in some way to the information in the citation seems to me counterintuitive and therefore misleading. --P123cat1 (talk) 12:16, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I see someone has amended the text since my last comment. The change makes the instruction much clearer. But it still does not cover the point about avoiding long names and names that contain only numbers. --P123cat1 (talk) 10:59, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Has anyone actually read this page?
Try reading this page from the point of view of someone who is new to Wikipedia and just wants to know how to add citations. It is completely incomprehensible, and instead of providing a clear guide it is just full of long discussions of arcane acronyms, javascript versions, discussions of activations, etc. Why do we need to tell NEW users about all the different versions of reftoolbar when they are NEW accounts and default for all users, logged in or not, is refToolbar 2.0b? Why do we talk primarily about brings them something to do with referencing? Why call it RefToolBar- in camelcase- they are referencing templates or citation templates?

Looking at these templates- they are useful and useless at the sametime. If I use them to add a reference to the Bibliography- I have to delete the unneeded. Then I have to manually add a  or tell my students to type the date as   just to make my academic markup or sfns to link. Looking at the - we have a lovely tool that autofills a reference, why doesn't that automatically happen on the cite book? Yadkard ISBN tool.

Now I must go on to query the language focus, and language complexity. Language focus is obvious- the page is to be read by our perception of a beginner (all be it most will be provisional experts in their field) and not read by old lags that can transclude, do RFCs and are picky about leaving no stone unturned- KISS principle- keep it simple- s.... . Language complexity, black rats can reputedly keep 43 facts in their head at anyone time. Humans achieve seven-- but with age that becomes a lot less (POV-OR-CoI), we mustnot befuddle newbies with unnecessary detail and schlangensätze- with a snake of subordinate clauses, or the need to follow wikilinks- repetition works bettter for newbies. Which is why I find the need to interpret an icon- to open a toolbar so I can open a template- to enter a refernce- just three levels of information too far.

My happiest student was a professional lady who I showed how to C&P using, and  for mistakes. With  and   her joy was complete. She didn't want to ask her grand-children to show her- and this was the first time she had been shown things the typewriter didn't do. With that she understood why wikipedia editing could be fun.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 22:25, 14 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The more that one looks into this- the more one is struck by the lack of consistency in nomenclature in the mountain of articles on referencing. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 21:32, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

RfC: What method first
What type of sources manner should be explained first for our new editors- "Manual referencing"  or "Using refToolbar"

Comments
PAGE''' ]]) 20:47, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Manual referencing should be first as per all the other intro pages to referencing ( Help:Introduction to referencing/1 - Help:Footnotes - Tutorial/Citing sources - Inline citation - Citation templates and Contributing to Wikipedia ) . We should not assume all our editors can support JavaScript. Plus making our new editors watch a 5 mins video or have to read  6 or 7  steps is simply not easier then telling them to  add  freetext. We should mention the method most used first. I personally think the  refToolbar is great but as a contributor to the help desks.....I see that refToolbar is another thing people have to learn. I believe knowing the very basics first is more helpful in the long run over telling new editors to use templates  that need to be filled out. Wikipedia permits editors to use any citation system that allows the reader to understand where the information came from. We should not assume all like the tools and will use them off the bat....we should give  the basic info first.... by telling people what the code looks..and where it can be found...then talk about the tools and other methods available.  Leavening people in the dark about what the code looks like and does is not helpful in the long run. People dont need to learn all the  HTML code just  before they learn more . As of now we  talk about  how with refToolbar editors should remove the reftags for a bib before we even explain what the code is for...again putting the the cart before the horse.  -- Moxy (talk) 16:07, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * RefToolbar I do a lot of work helping new editors at the Articles for Creation Help Desk and through the Articles for creation review and comment process, and a huge number of them are befuddled by the simple process of using the HTML-like http://www.wikipedia.org tags, so you end up with articles severly broken by such code as,  ,  ,  , etc. Then you get the users who put in references like   or  . Beyond that, when many editors see that they have to use HTML-like code they get scared away. The RefToolbar provides a user-friendly way to enter citations without having to use any code, prompts users to fill in information other than the bare URL, shows users the type of information that should be included in a reference, and properly formats everything in a standard template. Beginners should start out with such tools, but if they don't have javascript or would like the flexibility of coding it themselves all they have to do is scroll down. However, with manual referencing at the top, many new editors will just have their eyes glaze over, decide that the whole thing is too complicated, and give up. --Ahecht ([[User_talk:Ahecht|'''TALK
 * If people are typing malformed ref pairs, then maybe we should start by explaining what a tag is. That is basic knowledge and they will have to know it to make any sense of what they see in the edit window. HTML tutorials start with something easy, like  gives bold and   gives italic.  If we can explain that, then it  shouldn't be such a problem. It's just a tag that makes the footnote magically appear in the proper place. I think we should spend a lot of time on that and make sure that people understand it before moving on to reflist and so on. This way, maybe they can understand that the toolbar is just an easy way to do fancy formatting of what appears between the  tags. – Margin1522 (talk) 05:44, 17 March 2015 (UTC)|


 * Manual referencing- maybe. I am interested to hear about the on-line beginners, as it is not a group that I have had much to do with. My perspective is standing in a hall. and looking at a disparate group of skeptical faces- some who have multiple PhDs and some who were dragged along to boost numbers. Some of my beginners start to write a new article, some add content to an existing one, some want to a insert references from a book we have provided into an existing articles.


 * It is irrelevant whether we stat with one or the other- they need clear instructions on how one method- or all four methods work. We need to structure this help for beginners article so Ahecht is comfortable with using it and Moxy is, and I can use it at a face to face tutorial. On balance I say we have.


 * 1) Lead
 * 2) Introduction to referencing. Why? What we do to show the references at the end
 * 3) Basic manual markup.
 * 4) Using cite templates in the editor reftool bar
 * 5) Basic method for citing many pages from one book (academic markup)
 * 6) Mark up with footnotes and references and bibliography
 * 7) Legacy methods
 * 8) See also
 * The test- on-line beginners would be shown section 2 and 4, my unwilling participants can start at 3 then an hour in I switch them to 3, my academics I start at 5. Those reading the page for them selves still have the same order as they would find in other help pages. When it comes to the crunch, at the end of the day anything is better than nothing, and given a clue, someone else can work out what the reference really should be.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 21:36, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * This proposal sound good to me....should we make a sandbox for testing after this RfC? -- Moxy (talk) 18:57, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * RefToolbar: I have referred a number of new editors here because of the types of syntactical and content problems described above by User:Ahecht. I share his experience-based concern that confronting many new editors with HTML-like code at the outset will intimidate them, and we have enough problems getting editors to add usable refs already. RefToolbar allows the editor to focus on the content rather than the fine details of correct syntax, and cues the editor for addition of the most common data fields, while allowing optional access to more-advanced data fields when desired. In the spirit of WP:BOLD, I have just rewritten parts of the entire article, to give it more coherence, remove unhelpful repetition, and improve clarity. I have even tried to clean up the "Manual referencing" section to reduce the ocurrence of the common new editor error of doing a test edit on the Help page itself. The "Manual referencing" section is important enough that it needs to cleaned up and made less intimidating, but I don't think we should lead with it. The entire article still could use a lot of improvement, regardless of how we decide the question of section ordering. Reify-tech (talk) 06:50, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear you believe option B is easier and wont deter editors as much as option A? Option B seen first will send new editors running for the hills. Just image you want to add one sentence to an article and you were linked to a wall of text you have to read to insert one source....a walls of text is the deterrent here....not one HTML code. Teaching our new editors about one html code is not a hard thing.-- Moxy (talk) 15:36, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Option A"Inline citations are most commonly placed by inserting a reference between URL  tags, directly in the text of an article."


 * Option B


 * 1) If you don't see a drop-down menu labeled on the toolbar above the edit window, click on "MediaWiki Vector skin right arrow.png Cite " at the top of the toolbar to activate refToolbar.
 * 2) Position the cursor in the text where you want the numbered link to your citation to appear. This should be at the end of the relevant phrase, sentence, or paragraph that the citation is verifying (after any punctuation, see MOS:REFPUNC for more information). Do not position the cursor at the very end of the article or in the  section — place it directly after the text the citation verifies.
 * 3) Click on the drop down menu labeled, and choose the citation type you would like to add ("cite web" for websites, "cite news" for newspaper articles, "cite book" for books, and "cite journal" for academic journals).
 * 4) Once you select a type of citation, a new window will appear with a number of blank fields to fill in. Fill in as many of the fields as you can. You may leave some fields blank, but make sure to at least provide a "Title" to avoid causing an error message when you save the page.

If you are citing from a website, make sure to enter the web address of the page in the "URL" field. Click on the button next to the "Access Date" field to indicate that you checked the information on the website you're citing today.

If you are citing from a book, there is a feature that will automatically fill in many of the information fields, avoiding manual entry of this data. If you can find the ISBN of the book, enter it into the ISBN field in the form, then click on the icon to its right. The software will look up the book information from a database on the Internet, and automatically fill in many of the fields for you. You should verify that the information is correct, since it sometimes is wrong, incomplete, or badly formatted (especially if there are multiple authors). You should also add page numbers or other information if available.

If you are citing from a journal, a similar feature can use the PMID for many medical journal articles, or DOI for academic journals.


 * 1) Once you have filled in the form, you can optionally click the button at the bottom to see the code that will be inserted.  If you then click on the "Show parsed preview" link under the code you will see the citation displayed as it would appear in the finished article.
 * 2) When you are satisfied with the information in the citation form, clicking the button will close the form and add the code for your citation to the edit window at the location you had selected prior to choosing a citation type. This information will show up as a superscript numbered link when you preview or save your edit.

The problem with your "Option A" is that it expects new editors to improvise the text inside the ref tags, based on guesswork related to whatever already-formatted refs they may have seen in the past, on Wikipedia and elsewhere. This often results in poor-quality or unusable refs, which need to be completely redone by somebody else. I have cleaned up badly-formatted and incomplete refs many times, and it is a tedious process to redo something that the new editor (who usually is motivated to do a good job) would be happy to do, if only they knew how. The refToolbar template cues the editor for which pieces of information are most essential, and takes care of all the formatting details automatically. If the ISBN, DOI, or PMID are available, it does much of the work automatically, saving the editor much tedium. It is sad to see a new editor painstakingly wasting time trying to reproduce a number of DOI refs manually, and still getting it somewhat wrong.

Your "Option A" (manual referencing) looks simple, because it completely avoids giving any guidance or help to a new editor. It is similar to saying one should create a new article by opening a new edit window, filling in the article contents, and then saving the window. Forcing a new editor to deal with the nitty-gritty raw details of syntax and formatting of references unaided is unlikely to get much in the way of useful contributions, and may even scare off an editor from trying to add references at all.

Keep in mind the overall goal, which is to make it as easy as possible for new editors to add useful refs to Wikipedia articles. I am not proposing that we hide the formatting details from a new editor; I fully support keeping the manual referencing section, and improving it as much as possible. But I have decades of experience helping large new user populations with diverse levels of technical expertise come up to speed, and have found that expecting everyone to internalize detailed syntax is too much to ask. Even experienced techies used to writing computer code can benefit from the automated assistance supported by tools like refToolbar. Reify-tech (talk) 02:23, 18 March 2015 (UTC)


 * My intuition suggests to put manual referencing first because it explains the basics of how the  tag and   template work; then introducing other methods that employ them would make more sense, and the wiki markup would also be more familiar to the user.  An understanding of how the markup works also opens the door for using other kinds of footnotes.  Hopefully the bullet list outlining the "three ways to do this" would assist users to jump to refToolbar if desired, perhaps aided by a slightly more detailed explanation (e.g., "Manually typing in formatting code and bibliographic information"; "Using refToolbar to fill out a form with the bibliographic information and automatically generate the appropriate code").  However, I don't have any experience with new users who may be deterred by the scary HTML details and bail out, so I would defer to the wisdom of others like Reify-tech on that.  —sroc &#x1F4AC; 04:47, 18 March 2015 (UTC)


 * RefToolbar We are talking about new editors, the manual way should be explained, but the easy way should be shown first to get them started. AlbinoFerret  23:31, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * RefToolbar. Either is fine, but RefToolbar seems like the gentler introduction.  Until they understand the basics of markup, manual referencing has the possibility of confusing them. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:43, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Complete overhaul of tutorial
I am working up an alternative approach in Help:Referencing for beginners/sandbox. I have delayed going public because of the ongoing (slowing ) RfC. But here goes. Please go an have a look and comment in the usual way. There is no standard nomenclature for referencing method- and at this point editors are at dual purposes. I have split it into 3. Basic references. Then the multiple RefTool bars. Then Full references. (Basic & Full are both incarnations of 'Manual'. RefTool bar needs a far catchier name- and was gobbledy gook until you realise that a simple cross in prefernces changes all the screens as you pass from RefTool 1.0 to RefTool 2.0a to RefTool 2.0b. With a class of beginners using default settings you can see ill three in play- depending on what was the default the day they registered their user name (I think!). This page is addressing three or more audiences- Beginners who have registered and are learning at home. Beginners who are attending our courses and Experienced editors who are coming back to chect that a technique they have just used is compatible with the basic technique that beginners are being taught. We needed a page Help:Referencing for beginners and another one Help:Basic Referencing (Core Wikipedia Techiques). So using the assumption that we are writing Help:Referencing for beginners: imo we give the how, and leave the why to a section at the end of put it in a efn-footnote. This gives the beginner enough information to get started- and the why give the improver the information thay need. so please look at the sandbox and and be clinical in your criticisms. Apologies in advance if I am slow to get back- RL is sapping my energy.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 19:44, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I like it...like the "Basic" section first and really like the "Do's and don'ts" section  great  idea. The section "Good references" from here should be moved to "Do's and don'ts"  in this version I think. Great work  -- Moxy (talk) 20:07, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Looks promising, though it will take me a while to work through it carefully. The new version mentions Yarkard and other tools not covered previously in this intro, which is good; Help has been spotty at describing or comparing the multiple methods of referencing. The current live version of the Help:Referencing for beginners article has some improvements that were not picked up when you forked off a reworked version; they should be picked up and integrated into the new version. With your consent, may other editors work on the proposed replacement?  Reify-tech (talk) 20:36, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Gladly ✅. Having one positive response here was the only reward I need. Personally I think this needs another set of eyes, and the reworked code should be integrated. Give it a week for editors to have a look- then the old section should be over-written. As I should have said- no animals were hurt in revising the code- and very little new material was added and nothing was erased- it is there somewhere, just commented out. I need to refer students to this page on April 8th so please lets not delay to wait for Citoid. In the meantime enjoy.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 16:25, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

PAGE''' ]]) 20:58, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * We may want to hold off on a complete re-write for a few months until Citoid is enabled in the wikitext editor (see Village_pump_(technical)). --Ahecht ([[User_talk:Ahecht|'''TALK
 * In a few months I will have forgotten everything that i have just written so will happily do a re-re-write. Wikipedia is a big place, and I can be found helping newbies, GLAM and industrial history- I recognise and respect your advice and experience. In April I will be helping at a training session at a conference of mathematicians, so I was swatting up on improving maths articles- I looked for the online references we are giving out students. The first call was Manual of Style/Mathematics (Manual of Style/Mathematics/sandbox), which prompted me to look for Manual of Style/Manual of Style, and Manual of Style/Help pages. You can see my thought line here... There is a whole rich seam that follows Manual of Style/Tutorial pages and many more.  It does seem that getting consistent help pages would be a massive start to improving thousands of articles. --  Clem Rutter (talk) 16:25, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, the Help for building references is strategic for improving the quality of Wikipedia. I got drawn into this from seeing repeated incidences of new editors adding unusable refs, or being intimidated from adding any at all. The Help coverage of this important skill needs a lot of improvement, but it should encourage new editors to add usable refs in parallel with their new material. Reify-tech (talk) 17:11, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Can I remind editors I have left a restructured alternative at Help:Referencing for beginners/sandbox. Everyone is welcome to improve it. The reasons I find this page unsuitable for use with beginners remain the same no matter how fine the prose. Enjoy. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 21:17, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Second reminder- do you want me to be WP:BOLD? I would prefer a little concensus first. Clem Rutter (talk) 15:14, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Easy access to Template:Find sources and the like
Template:Find sources and its relatives make it easy to look up references on a page in a variety of places. For example:

How can we make this sort of list of handy customized searches available, e.g. to anyone creating a new article or editing an existing one? After seeing that list of searches from time to time, I was surprised to have no luck finding information on it here and in other places I looked, until I found a helpful volunteer on IRC. But even now I'd like an easier way to generate it than adding this template temporarily to a page's talk page. Can we make a gadget for it, or the like, and link to that from here? Or am I missing an even easier existing approach? ★NealMcB★ (talk) 00:36, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Reference test
This is the text which you are going to verify with a reference.

Footnotes mentions, but it does not exist?
Hi~ I'm confused. The Footnotes section mentions, but it does not exist? Zeniff (talk) 01:59, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is confusing. I've made an edit which I hope makes it clearer. -- John of Reading (talk) 05:53, 15 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, thank you:) Now I understand that it refers to several possible "cite" templates, such as or mentioned in . I might be missing something, though; I will read more about this topic. Thank you for the improvement!:) Zeniff (talk) 22:20, 16 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi again, I just stumbled across . I was thinking to link it to one of the  from your edit. But I'm not sure it would be helpful or not. Do you think it would confuse beginners by making them think they should use the "" template itself if it were linked in the article as ? Zeniff (talk) 00:36, 28 June 2016 (UTC)


 * I've made an edit. If a beginner copies and pastes it, it won't work and it might be confusing, but I don't think there is anything we can do to stop that. But now it is a clickable link to somewhere sensible. -- John of Reading (talk) 05:40, 28 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Good point, and your edit looks better than the one I was thinking to make! Thank you again!:) Zeniff (talk) 01:48, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Reorganization suggested
It is my opinion that this help advice needs some tender loving care.

For a long time, when either manually creating a reference or using the ref toolbar was the best way to create a reference this guide was excellent as it walked through the process to use either of those options.

However, it is my opinion hopefully shared by others, that while the visual editor had some fits and starts it now does an excellent job of doing references. It can't handle 100% of the cases so some other options may be necessary but when it can handle a reference it is an order of magnitude easier than the other two options. That option is listed in this how-to guide but it is listed third and listed after the other two options. A beginning editor is likely to make the reasonable assumption that we would start with the best options first.

It may be as simple as listing visual editor first but I also would like to see some wording that says that new editors should try inserting references with visual editor because it is very easy and then note that there are some alternatives if the visual editor doesn't work or for some reason the editor prefers not to use the visual editor.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  12:35, 25 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I've got to agree. But probably would go a lot further. The title is referencing for beginners, so can we seriously target it at 'beginners. A beginner is just that someone who has just started. If we keep life to the very simplest we tell our beginners that 'A wikipedia edit has three parts- an interesting fact- a reference, a link to where you found it, and an edit summary- a description of what you have done. The reference is that basic- and our beginners have not even learnt how to preview and save. Our beginners can be teenagers, retired academics- librarians who realise that WP is the future and must conquer their fear of the computer and learn WP- they can have (en) as their third or fourth language. That is who the page is for. VE works for the young and is impossible for the old - and is best avoided until the beginner knows enough wikitext to join us on this talk page.




 * This suggests to me 4 pages Referencing for beginners, Referencing for the new user using VE., Referencing styles currently used, and Referencing for the academic. Personally I would add Referencing using simple and extended footnotes. I have wrestled with this problem in paper material- designed for specific narrow groups. (booklet included). I am not happy with the result, but it shows the problem.


 * If this was not Wikipedia with it's - go ahead and do it and then think later where we need it mentality. We would 'collectively get together to define the problem- then analyse it, define the specifications and the success criteria- that completed we would synthesise a solution- then we would start to implement it- iterative revise it ane when it was ready publish it. Even running the proposed text through a GA review would improve the quality.


 * will interested to see where this leads. ClemRutter (talk) 16:06, 25 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I'd also like to see this page reorganized, but I'd go a different direction. (Definitely not VE.) But best we "'collectively get together to define the problem" first, which is to say: determine where we should go (and perhaps why) before starting. I've thought of starting that discussion myself, but if it's just a typical unorganized cattle call for comments the result will be the usual free-for-all with lots of friction and little progress. Alternately, a small group of editors might be able to identify problems and concerns, explore possible improvements, and then work out a plan and accompanying rationale that could then be offered for comment. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:02, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Cite web infographic
--Jennica ✿ / talk 01:15, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
 * That is great! But if the goal is to give an optimal example:


 * that should be a "cite news" as this is not just some website:
 * it does not need "access date" as it has a dateline.
 * The optimal citation is

-- Jytdog (talk) 01:46, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

thank you
Thanks for supporting me, I learn how to add reference link in article by my own trail in an article glossary of genetic if you find any mistakes please correct it once again thanks for supporting me. Sri Harsha Malempati (talk) 16:54, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

thank you
Thank for supporting me, I learn how to add reference link in my own trail in a article glossary of genetic if you find any mistakes please correct it once again thanks for supporting me Sri Harsha Malempati (talk) 16:54, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

citing sources should be easier, by a dedicated text input field
When I click on the edit tab at the top of the page to add to an article and then click on "publish changes" to update the page a "summarise your edit" box pops up. I think there should be an extra text input field for me to cite the source of my content. The current system of tags doesn't encourage me as it's too fiddly, do those tags go in the article? Adrian816 (talk) 15:38, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
 * this is the talk page for discussing improvements to the page Help:Referencing for beginners. I think that you are looking for the Help desk. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 21:18, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

How do you add one i dont understand it
Hey guys can you please help me add one WikiCoolPerson (talk) 01:54, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Merge and Redirect to WP:INTREF
It looks as though this page is beginning to get out of date. The pages Help:Introduction to referencing with VisualEditor and Help:Introduction to referencing with Wiki Markup contain more up to date info on the current editing interface. I suggest merging in any information from this page that is missing from those pages and redirecting to reduce the number of pages in need of maintenance. T.Shafee(Evo &#38; Evo)talk 21:33, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I support this. Most of the information on this page is way too technical and should be cut. Just send editors to the better page. Sdkb (talk) 06:29, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It looks like an editor has bypassed this discussion, ignored feedback at the Village Pump, and turned the page into what looks like mostly a copy of the Help:Intro reference content. It's an improvement over the mess that was here originally, but it would be much better to set up transclusions so that we won't need to keep maintaining this page. Can we get the Help:Intro series set up so that it's easier to transclude its pages to places like this? &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 00:37, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Making this page more beginner friendly
I think we should redo this page to make it more beginner friendly. Do you have any ideas on how we can do it? I was thinking we could take out some of the stuff in there to make it more concise, but I'd be interested in your thoughts on how we could do it. Interstellarity (talk) 21:21, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Blow it up and start again, is my view! It's an utterly incomprehensible help page; useless for new editors. That's why I wrote my own referencing guide at WP:EASYREFBEGIN which I often link to when I reply at the Teahouse. Nick Moyes (talk) 21:36, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe something along the lines of Help:Introduction_to_referencing_with_Wiki_Markup/1 or Help:Introduction to referencing with VisualEditor/1. Do you think these pages are easy for new editors to understand? Maybe we could build upon them. Interstellarity (talk) 21:47, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that this page is a hopeless mess. The best thing we can do for it is to see who or what's pointing here, point them to better resources, then mark this as historical with a big "see here instead" notice or turn it into a redirect directly. Regarding other pages, I think the Help:Intro series pages do a decent job, as does Nick's page. The key thing I'd like to see is less focus on (or no mentioning at all of) the old manual ways of inserting references, and more focus on the ref toolbar, which anyone in their right mind will prefer. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 22:44, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * My one (of many) complaints about this and other referencing pages is that use of the term 'RefToolbar' in a way that assumes new editors actually know what the heck that is! And please don't take this the wrong way,, but I have noticed you're rather good at saying 'someone ought to fix this' then leaving it to others to get on and do all the hard work. I hope this isn't another one of them! Nick Moyes (talk) 23:00, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I have copied and pasted the contents of the page into my sandbox and I'm going to try to build upon it myself. I'm not sure how the page would be structured. I started off by deleting the Before you start heading because I feel it's a little unnecessary, but I'll try to figure something out. Your ideas are welcome as well. Interstellarity (talk) 00:01, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * In the spirit of consolidation, is there any reason we need this page? As I said above, I think the better approach is not to try to build upon this page, but to try to build upon one of the better ones we've identified, and move toward deprecating this one. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 08:55, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I was thinking we could build off of Nick's referencing for beginners guide or one of the referencing guides in the series of Help:Introduction tutorials. Is this a good move? Interstellarity (talk) 11:52, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I hope you didn't miss the ping. Did you receive my message above? Interstellarity (talk) 15:30, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd agree with sdkb on this - it might be best to consolidate where possible to reduce maintenance overhead and repetition. It might be worth considering also merging and redirecting Help:Referencing for beginners without using templates and Help:Referencing for beginners with citation templates. That way we centralise currently relevant information aimed at new editors (do we still encourage new editors to add references without citation templates? Would they even understand the term 'citation template' sufficiently to find that page?). For detailed info for non-beginners (e.g. manually formatting text inside ref tags) there are Help:Footnotes and WP:Citing sources. T.Shafee(Evo &#38; Evo)talk 02:17, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Blow up and start again
Sometimes you get too close to the article you have been working on, and lose the plot. I saw there had been changes to this famously unworkable page, and read the summary and it looked as something positive may be happening. I looked at the page and was disappointed. I have trained many folk in the art of Wikipedia and this page just doesn't do what it says on the tin. The language level is inappropriate, the content is not suitable for the target audience the page layout is confusing.

It is not my intention to critically assess every fault, but just to illustrate the three points I have made.


 * It starts with All quotations, any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, and contentious material (whether negative, positive, or neutral) about living persons must include an inline citation to a source that directly supports the material. This also means that Wikipedia is not the place for original work, archival findings that have not been published, or evidence from any source that has not been published.  Total off focus- that is not answering the question- How do I add a reference. It has been placed in the lead without a ref, and not expanded in the article. Looking at the sentence- the verb is 'must', the subject is a noun phrase, including  list including a  clause and another noun phrase .... What sort of language level is that- not for beginners.


 * It is off topic, rambling, correct and interesting to Wikipedian with a few years experience.


 * The layout: A reference section (So it looks) in the middle of the article! Random icons and an unfunny in-joke placed at random. The caption within it- is in UC when LC a was needed.

Over the years I have written training booklets for different sessions. Sample booklet. I am not satisfied with any of them, some are dated, but mainly I could never simplify the text sufficiently, I am always too verbose- I was hit by the constraints of the format- and here we must accept that this article is going to be read mainly on a mobile phone- a further nightmare.

Please plunder User:ClemRutter/training and commons:Category:Wikimedia UK training booklets.

I see that Help:Referencing for beginners/sandbox is still available ClemRutter (talk) 18:55, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The adolescent look and lack of mobile access of the tutorial is a major point of contention for many. Main problem is the tutorial was constructed years ago and by just a few people that had limited experience in retaining editors so it reads unfinished (un polished if you will). Perhaps best to start a new page for the  "need reference" templates. Almost impossible to work on old pages like this. Transclusion over accessability and format has been a great concern as of late..... trying to educate the new generation is very hard thus we should make it as simple as possible.- Moxy 🍁 19:37, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Super job !!! The trimmed down version is simpler, less intimidating to new users, right on target. In writing, less is more, and you've demonstrated that. Kudos to you!!!--Tomwsulcer (talk) 20:05, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You're looking to thank the authors of the Help:Introduction series modules which are now being mirrored here; Moxy and I just set it up to do that (Moxy by copying and pasting and myself by turning it into a transclusion, so that it will stay updated as the Help:Intro tutorial evolves). There's no actual content in the source code of this page anymore, which will be hugely useful for conserving editor resources, since we'll only have to maintain/improve one centralized page rather than many (a lack of careful attention to this page was likely the main thing that led to it becoming so unwieldy in the first place). Some of those are fair points. It's definitely not perfect, but it's a big step up from the mess that was here before. At some point we might want to develop an even shorter page that just gives the basic technical how-to only for the simplest method of adding a reference. If you want to work on that, I'd suggest using ' WP:EASYREFBEGIN as a starting point. But even that is too long compared to what I think we'd want for such a page. &#123;{u&#124;  Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 20:21, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Think we should drop transclution.....will help fix huge white spaces and trim the kid images. As for maintaining there's many more editors here than at the tutorial..... sometimes it takes days to notice vandalism at the tutorial where here it gets noticed in minutes.-- Moxy 🍁 20:42, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Is there some reason not to just redirect this page to Help:Introduction to referencing with Wiki Markup/1 or Help:Introduction/All? * Pppery * it has begun... 20:57, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd be fine with this becoming a redirect to the first one. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 21:01, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Huge reason....no one goes beyond the first page of our tutorials....this would be the 4th time we have experimented with them as our main landing page  . Years of experience has taught us that multiple page tutorial dont retain editors. |Help:Introduction_to_referencing_with_Wiki_Markup/2|Help:Introduction_to_referencing_with_Wiki_Markup/3|Help:Introduction_to_referencing_with_Wiki_Markup/4  as seen here .What is the point if noone even makes to the page about how to add them. For help pages best to follow WP:KISS..-- Moxy 🍁 11:23, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Proposal to drop transclusion
Not that this weird format had any consensus prior. BUT... Proposal to drop transclution in favor of a properly formatted page that can be monitored and edited by those involved here  to be specific for the target audience. Best to have watcher's from the more watched page. -- Moxy 🍁 20:42, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * As above, I strongly oppose this. You recently replaced this page with content that was almost entirely a mirror copy of the Help:Intro modules. The edits that were subsequently made should all have been made to the modules as well. Transcluding allows the two pages to stay synced with each other as they evolve in the future, and halves the amount of editor attention needed to maintain them. Small things like the shortcut boxes (which I think are fine) can be worked out as needed. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 21:07, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I have created Help:Referencing for beginners/sandbox 2020 as a proof of concept. I am coming at this from a very different direction from the tutorial crowd, when I discovered that this was the target page used by the citation needed police and other wiki-world, I see my need for a beautifully formatted beginners help page that can be understood by beginners whose first language is not English on their mobile phone is tangential to the discussion. Persisting, I am saying what about using the  construct to hide all the pretentious gobbly-de-gook from the real user, while letting others choose to open the tutorial transclusions. I see we can add a hidden section sample code, and a hidden section sample article to give the sort of examples that my clients are needing- like a real Help page. (No doubt this will be scuppered by 2003 policy ruling or ....) All of this assumes that the flailing user is using the wikitext editor (thats an unnecessary mouthful in itself) like all of us. The real problem is the Visual editor bunnies, and the wretches with Androids or Apples.
 * A transclusion, done properly is a hell of a lot of work. Pages must be prepared to be transcluded. These are not yet ready. Lines like In this tutorial have to be edited out, as this is a help page not a tutorial. Care must be taken about tense- it is valid to use the future tense in a tutorial- but the help page needs the simple present. A tutorial can rely on sequence while a help page cant. Transclusion page must have minimal formatting, and decoration so they don't overide the visual design of the recipient pages. Yes they do keep pages in sync, that is one problem solved but I am not sure that offsets the time taken to remind editors to test their edits in all contexts. Anyway Help:Referencing for beginners/sandbox 2020 may be a way to accommodate some transclusions.ClemRutter (talk) 08:35, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I am for whatever makes THIS page viable and editable. Transclusion as of now leaves huge white space and child like images from the tutorial. Not sure why anyone would transclusion from a page that has 10x less editors and watchers. What should happen if our new generation should be doing this the other way around...... actually fixing the main pages and transclusion from there...not the other way around. Not sure why it's so hard to move forward when its clear what should ve done. So here we are again trying to explain  what's best for gaining new editors to no avail.-- Moxy 🍁 21:04, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Referencing sources from academic publishers
--Quinndo (talk) 06:05, 25 May 2020 (UTC) Dear Wikipedians,

I am a beginner. I am working on an article en:Christine Holgate. When trying to publish the work, I received the warning said that I would not be allowed to publish the changes if I use the sources from some academic publishers, which do not allow others to visit and verify. Those URL links contain '.proxy.', '.gate.'. Would you mind giving me the advice to fix this problem? I am looking forward to receiving your response! Thank you for your time! Quinndo
 * Hi ! I'd recommend you post this question at the Teahouse, where there are more editors present and someone can hopefully help you figure out what's going on. Best, &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 06:18, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you! Quinndo

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2020
Caption: "Wikipedians famously demand citations for facts!" add. this is a biased statement 2600:6C44:237F:ACCB:A97C:D987:610E:E616 (talk) 22:42, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ❌ &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 23:05, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2020
AGP office has Pakistan Audit and Accounts Academy at Lahore to run courses for its Field Audit Offices. Rector is the Head of the Academies at Lahore, while its regional academies are situated at Islamabad, Karachi, Quetta and Peshawar. 175.107.30.245 (talk) 09:03, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: this is the talk page for discussing improvements to the page Help:Referencing for beginners. Please make your request at the talk page for the article concerned. – Thjarkur (talk) 09:20, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Lack of examples, cite web etc
Refs for beginners is regularly linked at the Teahouse, however now I've got around to reading it i've noticed it's lacking in examples and doesn't explain what goes between the ref tags, possibly leading to bare URL usage instead of the widely popular Cite web. There's some satellite literature like Help:Referencing for beginners with citation templates but I feel the main page would benefit from a little fleshing out. I'm going start drafting some changes. I welcome objections or any other ideas. Regards, Zindor (talk) 11:56, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should be teaching wikitext here, since the wikitext code for references is complicated, and even experienced users tend to prefer RefToolbar. We could adjust to make the pointing to RefToolbar clearer, but it should be simple enough to be intuitive (if not, we need to change the toolbar) and we should keep this page simple. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 14:39, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the input, . If RefToolbar is the main method nowadays then yes I agree we shouldn't distract from it, and in that case the page is fine how it is. I've always kept the toolbar disabled, so have been looking at this from a different angle.


 * What concerned me is that by only showcasing the automated method, new users aren't experiencing this formerly common opportunity to manipulate wikitext and aren't given the confidence that comes with that or the knowledge to fix simple syntax problems in references when they do occur.


 * Flip-side is that syntax highlighting exists and the automation of the task vastly reduces these errors. The editors can learn wikitext later on I guess. Thanks, Zindor (talk) 16:14, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Guess work again....|line|2-year|access-site~mobile-site*desktop-site|monthly Majority don't see tool bar.....so a few examples would be good. But they were deleted long ago 😠.-- Moxy 🍁 17:09, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I guess i'll put together a couple of concise examples, just enough to illustrate what the syntax for a reference looks like. Hopefully that will work for everyone. I'll drop a link to the draft text here later. Zindor (talk)
 * Moxy, there are plenty of readers on mobile, but many fewer editors. There's no good way to add references on mobile, which is a problem, but we won't solve it by making the instructions longer for everyone, which is classic instruction creep. This page needs to show people one simple way to add references, and that's RefToolbar. If you're concerned about mobile, go ask the WMF to build ways to make it easier to add references on mobile, or add special instructions for mobile editors here using If mobile. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 20:34, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * We simply have a different fundamental approach on how to attract editors and present information. I believe we should make information available thur all and for all platforms.... and educate all of them with the software currently available to us. I like to encourage editing by showing  mobile editors or desk editors the simplest way to add info and I don't assume they will use  my favorite tool or editing mode. We should not dismiss mobile editors off the bat... educate mobile readers...they may switch to desktop when they realize how much easier it is. That said why can't an example of the code output be presented....how is hiding this helpful...one line of code is instructional creep?-- Moxy 🍁 21:58, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Ok ive worked out some middle-ground. The examples stay off the page but a paragraph highlighting the existence of the long-used wikitext method (with a link to examples) is inserted as the third paragraph of this section. Plus some introductory text about the toolbar. This would mean a sub-page transclusion, instead of the current mirror of the introduction guide.

The details of a reference often populate the parameters of a template, such as cite web. These can be written out manually, as detailed here, but a simpler automated gadget exists for this purpose called the RefToolBar.

Zindor (talk) 01:08, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

We should have a citation for video games
The reason I say this because it can get annoying trying to cite for video games, I made a article on Papyrus (Character) and submitted in hopes of it becoming an official Wikipedia page but was rejected because of the sources not being “Reilable” Sonic Punch Revival (talk) 11:16, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * We do have Cite video game, but using it won't help you out with notability, since video games can never be reliable sources on their own. I'd suggest finding another topic you write about; there are lots of them! &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 18:21, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

talkref
Perhaps might be mentioned on the Help page, as well. --Ancheta Wis   (talk  &#124; contribs) 00:56, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 May 2021
197.46.95.244 (talk) 22:32, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Also note that if you genuinely have an edit request, this is probably not the page to ask; please leave it on the talk page of the article you’d like an edit to be made to. Pupsterlove02  talk • contribs 23:44, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

No examples
Would it not be prudent to give some basic parameters examples here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.249.225.54 (talk) 02:50, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * This page is teaching to use RefToolbar, so parameters aren't really needed. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 02:58, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Use of the same reference in multiple WP articles
I need some advice concerning what to do when citing the same source, such as a newspaper article, in multiple WP articles.

1. Should I assign different names to the references in each article? For example :content in the first article, :<ref >content</ref> in the second article, etc. Or can I simply use the same ref name in each article, as long as the source cited is the same?

2. If I can't use the same ref name in multiple articles, is it possible to somehow invoke a named footnote of the original reference in other articles? For example: When I invoke : in a second article, I get an error message saying: "Cite error: The named reference Smith 2021 A was invoked but never defined (see the help page)."

3. On the same help page, it reads: "References may also be defined within the reference list.". Is this something I can use to solve the problem with my previous example, in which the reference is not defined?

I hope my questions makes sense to the more experienced editors and thanks in advance for any help you can provide on the subject.

/Stefan 2.65.44.97 (talk) 12:09, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Why are these on this page
What's up with the CSD and redirect templates? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:19, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Fixed here......Caused by a half done move that is messing up the other page now ...Help:Introduction to referencing with wiki markup/1....one example of why transclusion is not always best. Edit reverted.-- Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 11:34, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yikes, my watchlist blew up due to all the disruption overnight, and the results here have been a mess, so trouts all around.
 * First,, thank you for taking on the task of correcting the capitalization error of wiki markup being miscapitalized as "Wiki Markup"—it's always nice to have proper styling and consistency. However, as you are still a new editor, I have to urge you to slow down and be more cautious. Page moves are much more difficult to undo than other types of edits, and when they happen on an interrelated set of pages like this, things get really complicated really quickly. Next time, please go to the talk page first—if that had happened here, I would have seen it and been able to help the move happen without disruption. No hard feelings—we all have a learning curve—but just something to please keep in mind going forward.
 * Second,, as always, it is extremely difficult to tell what you are doing due to your poor communication, and your editing pattern does not demonstrate competence. Don't move help pages to your userspace and then request that they be speedily deleted. Thankfully, declined it and helped clean up some of the mess, and it looks like  has (just now as I'm typing) helped clean up the remainder and restored the fractured edit history. Sorry to be blunt, but this is an ongoing issue, and my view of your editing is no secret, so this shouldn't be anything new.
 * It looks like everything is hopefully stable again (I'll double check later), so hopefully there's nothing further we need to do. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 20:15, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * No problem ....all fixed so it works ..WP:SWAP..thanks to  for the final fix. If only it was normal . Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 10:36, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I am really sorry for all the inconvenience due to my attempt of correcting the capitalization error of wiki markup being miscapitalized as "Wiki Markup". Today, I worked quite a lot to "update" Help:Getting started and Help:Introduction and there are still a lot of improvements pending! After much thought, I think it is even better to get entirely rid of "Wiki Markup" and use "Source editor" as all the pages in the tutorials Help:Introduction were already referring quite extensively to "Source editor". I think that "Source editor" is more appropriate for newbies (as Wikipedia user interface refers to: Visual editing and Source editing). What do you think of this and is it possible for you to help me in that way? Antoine Legrand (talk) 23:40, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I noticed those, and I agree we should try to standardize around a single terminology. Using "source editor" sounds good, as it aligns with the software and sounds more intuitive. I would open a discussion at Help talk:Introduction proposing a group move of all the "with Wiki Markup" pages to "with source editor". Once it gets enough input, we can go ahead with the move if there is consensus. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 23:44, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Duplication of "Introduction to referencing with Wiki Markup"
This help page is now just an exact copy of Help:Introduction to referencing with Wiki Markup, except embedded section by section onto a single page. The line breaks don't look great that way, and the example "References" section looks like it's one of the main sections.

Why don't we just redirect to the other Help page? --Lord Belbury (talk) 18:32, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi (and thanks for the edit you made earlier; it's definitely a plus)! The reason for the page's setup is that there's some history of controversy over whether or not we should be splitting tutorials over multiple pages. Those in favor argue that it's a usability best practice to keep pages short, whereas those opposed argue that it's the norm on Wikipedia to have everything on a single page. The data about which method gets more people to read all the way through is lacking. Until that question is resolved, having both options available is the stalemate compromise. I agree that it's not ideal with the line breaks; perhaps we should just get rid of those in the main tutorial or find a way to code them that doesn't transclude. &#123;{u&#124;  Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 23:29, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, the line breaks are quite bad here, if we're presenting this as a help page for very new users (it's linked from uw-unsourced1) and suggesting that quadruple spacing between paragraphs on a regular-looking Wikipedia page is fine. I wouldn't know where to start on fixing that, though. --Lord Belbury (talk) 10:46, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Lord Belbury, I'd start by posting on Help talk:Introduction saying you'd like to convert all the spacing to single-spacing. We can discuss that, and then if there's consensus, anyone can go through the list of tutorial pages and switch them over. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 00:28, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but wading into a "history of controversy" on a topic where nobody's gathered any data doesn't appeal. Good luck. --Lord Belbury (talk) 17:56, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * @Lord Belbury, since you posted here, there's been some follow-up. The line breaks now don't appear on the single-page versions of the tutorials, and they can be changed with a single edit to a centralized spot if we decide to. Cheers, &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 20:02, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Would be a great first step in making them accsible....one of many problems being ignored causing us to loss thousands of new editors.-- Moxy -Maple Leaf (Pantone).svg 00:31, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

"Help:REFERENCES" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Help:REFERENCES and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 14 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. -- Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 23:09, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Potential Vandalism?
Everthing has been replaced with the number 1. THTB lol&#39;nt (talk) 11:02, 21 June 2022 (UTC)


 * There was an issue with a recent edit to Template:Get parameter. I reverted it, so pages using it should be fixed now. the wub "?!"  11:20, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2023
I have a citation to add to this article that talks about the Dj Pool www.discopatrick.com/19-luis%20mario.html 128.138.100.160 (talk) 18:51, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Tollens (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps add a section advising against WP:OVERCITE
Since this is where Articles for Creation rejected submissions are sent, it would be useful to add a section on overciting. What do other editors think? Newystats (talk) 21:28, 1 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that'd be particularly helpful. A lot of the problems that we might think of as overciting really boil down to not knowing what an independent/reliable source is. Without that knowledge, asking someone who has submitted a draft with 2 good sources and 15 crappy ones to fix the overciting might well prompt them to remove the good ones.
 * Additionally, if we're talking about overciting by using too many references for a single piece of information, that's not a particularly egregious problem in the scale of things, plus it's easy for an experienced editor to solve, so overall it's not where I'd put our focus when talking to newcomers.
 * Cheers, &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 21:55, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 September 2023
203.211.106.117 (talk) 00:42, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

203.211.106.117 (talk) 00:42, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 01:14, 7 September 2023 (UTC)