Module talk:Citation/CS1/Archive 12

Author parsing
So after the latest blowup over template changes, I think adopting the "vauthors=" mechanism from Template:Vcite2 journal is worth serious consideration. The current approach is very unambiguous, but having the first and last name of every author as a separate parameter makes for very bloated markup, and it's definitely a burden on those of us who are still hand-typing citations. I support the goal of making our references into something semantically meaningful, because I think that many useful tools for article curation could be built if we had a reliable way of identifying which articles were supported by which references, which journals, books, authors, etc. But the content has to come first: if the semantic markup scheme is deterring authors from editing, there is a serious problem. In the big picture, it's much more important to have people identify sources in medical articles as being WP:MEDRS (or not) than it is for those references to emit correct metadata. (I think the medical articles tend to be a bigger friction point because they often have very large author lists that bloat enormously.)

So, is it possible to graft the parsing code for "vauthors=" onto the "authors=" parameter here? I assume "authors=" already dumps its entire string as a single author into the COinS metadata, so it's unlikely to make things worse. And is it possible to parse "et al." or "et al." at the end of that string without needing explicit markup? I have enough experience of HTML parsing to know that this kind of "do what I mean" parsing is risky, but given the debacle of the Visual Editor rollout, we're going to have to cope with hand-writing these templates for quite a while. Explicitly marking up every author may be less prone to error, but this isn't the first time there has been pushback about this, and I think this solution might make the process of structuring references a lot less objectionable. Choess (talk) 02:18, 6 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I haven't given the question of how would vauthors parsing work within Module:Citation/CS1 a great deal of thought but I'm pretty sure that it could be done. And it would produce better metadata because a requirement of vauthors would be that author (and editor) name lists would be required to adhere to the Vancouver system.  Because authors does not have that kind of requirement, a wide variety of formats can be found.


 * Module:Citation/CS1 already recognizes a variety of et al. forms. It is that recognition that causes the population of  That same recognition strips the et al. from the author and editor lists before they are sent to metadata and causes the module to render the author and editor lists with the standardized form of et al. appended.  The cs1|2 templates' remit includes handling and placement of static text but it is necessary to have a proper and consistent mechanism to inform the template when it should render certain static text.  This is why we have etal.


 * When editors feel free to add non-author-name text et al. to author-name parameters, I think that they then feel free to add other non-author-name text to author-name parameters in spite of instruction to the contrary in all cs1|2 documentation. Et al. is relatively easy to detect and compensate for; other text, not so easy; if it were, I'd have a category full of pages that have such cs1|2 template parameters.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 09:29, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Redirect this page to Help talk:Citation Style 1?
Should we redirect this page to Help talk:Citation Style 1? That page is watched by 160 editors, while this one is watched by only 60, and they are essentially the same forum. I think we should have just one discussion location for issues relating to the CS1 templates. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:21, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I would support this.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:33, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Given the above discussion occurred, absolutely. --Izno (talk) 19:49, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * And see the proposals below. I support the redirect. Just merge the existing discussions into the talk over there, if still active, archive them otherwise.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:15, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Et al 3
Please see this thread at the Helpdesk. The author name Sheetal is being rendered as She et al. in citation. Something to do with the regex for et al., apparently. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 18:32, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

(ec) For details, compare:



This is evidently caused by the over-eager regexp in the following code line: local pattern = ",? *'*[Ee][Tt] *[Aa][Ll][%.']*$"

which will recognize an "et al" mark even if it has neither a space between the two words nor a word boundary before it. Could we have a "\w" check or something of the sort built in to the beginning of that regexp to avoid this?

Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:34, 26 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Specifically, I'd recommend replacing  with   (i.e. either a comma plus optional space, or at least one space to separate the "et al" string from the preceding text). Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:53, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Lua doesn't support the regex alternation operator. Fixed in the sandbox I think:

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:19, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Hm. Like practically everything else that happens here, you are talking in cryptic terms that simply fly over the head of most people. Does fixing in the sandbox mean that there is going to be a proper fix or am I supposed to work it out by deploying whatever hack you did there? Female infanticide in India stills shows the error. - Sitush (talk) 19:56, 7 June 2015 (UTC)


 * The sandbox is the development environment for the citation templates. Changes are introduced and tested there, typically after a discussion like this one. Once the changes have been tested, the changes are moved to the main module, which makes them active in the templates. Because the citation templates are used millions of times in articles, the main module code is changed only once every few months. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:48, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Your response makes sense, although I'd query the testing bit given the number of bug reports that seem to appear here ;) - Sitush (talk) 01:47, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Et al 2
In English, abbreviations are set off with a comma, e.g. like this. This applies to "et al." equally, i.e. Smith, Jones, et al. When used with two or more names, the APA style expects it, viz. http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2011/11/the-proper-use-of-et-al-in-apa-style.html. Similarly for Grammarist. As does ICMJE. Chicago says to use a comma unless there's only one name written in full. That's everybody except, so I've restored my edit. Any third opinions? --RexxS (talk) 22:00, 13 May 2015 (UTC)


 * When I reverted your edit, in my edit summary I wrote: cs1


 * I've written this before: cs1|2 are not APA, are not Chicago, are not Bluebook, are not LSA, are not ICMJE, nor are they any other style. Certainly cs1|2 have been influenced by these styles but are not beholden to them.


 * Here is a simple using .  It has nine authors so it generates et al. in place of the ninth:
 * This form has been in place since to  on 7 October 2009.  That style continues in use to the present day in Module:Citation/CS1.
 * This form has been in place since to  on 7 October 2009.  That style continues in use to the present day in Module:Citation/CS1.


 * In the edit summary of your revert of my revert you wrote: not bound by your preferences either - see talk. I have made no claim of personal preference with regards to a comma preceding et al.; if you can show where I have, please do so, otherwise, please do not put words into my mouth that I have not spoken.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 00:16, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


 * has made a bold edit, and that edit has been reverted. Now we discuss. That's how WP works. Let's not have an edit war in a sandbox.


 * One of the things that we typically do on this page, or on Help talk:Citation Style 1, which is watched by more editors and serves as a better place to discuss changes to the module, is suggest a change and show some examples of how the change would be implemented. Then the change, if it meets with approval (or at least tentative approval, or perhaps aggressive lack of interest, or outright ambivalence), can be implemented in the sandbox and examples of the before/after rendering can be shown.


 * A suggestion has been made to insert a comma before "et al." in author and editor lists. Shall we attempt to implement that change in the sandbox and then display some test cases here to see if it works as intended? – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:21, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * One of the problems that besets Wikipedia is that it is being fossilised by editors who insist that "we have done it this way in the past" is an argument against any change. It isn't any argument at all. Your revert summary made two points, neither of which provided any objective reason why it would be better to have no separator before " et al." Your argument is clearly then nothing more than your personal preference, and I make no apologies for pointing that out to you. I have provided multiple objective reasons: the use of commas before abbreviations is standard English grammar; all other style guides that I know of require a comma. I know we're not obliged to follow other style guides, but a lack of obligation to do something is poor excuse for not doing it, and I'd ask why you would not want to adopt a style that was consistent with what readers see in almost every other serious publication? --RexxS (talk) 11:58, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * One of the problems that besets Wikipedia is that it is being fossilised by editors who insist that "we have done it this way in the past" is an argument against any change. It isn't any argument at all. Your revert summary made two points, neither of which provided any objective reason why it would be better to have no separator before " et al." Your argument is clearly then nothing more than your personal preference, and I make no apologies for pointing that out to you. I have provided multiple objective reasons: the use of commas before abbreviations is standard English grammar; all other style guides that I know of require a comma. I know we're not obliged to follow other style guides, but a lack of obligation to do something is poor excuse for not doing it, and I'd ask why you would not want to adopt a style that was consistent with what readers see in almost every other serious publication? --RexxS (talk) 11:58, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Do not presume to think that I am opposed to change; I am not. For evidence of that look at the history of this module; read Help talk:Citation Style 1 and its archives.


 * Lest you continue to put words into my mouth that I have not spoken, let me definitively state my position with regards to punctuation preceding et al.: I am neither in favor of nor opposed to punctuation preceding et al. in editor- and author-name-lists; in short, I do not care.


 * If the community are content to have et al. rendered without preceding punctuation, then I accept that. If the community determines though discussion that cs1|2 should render et al. with preceding punctuation, then I accept that.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:14, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Support – The only argument presented above for not including a serial comma before "et al." is that it hasn't been since 7 October 2009 which is not a strong argument. Furthermore the removal of the comma was apparently made with no discussion. As journal style guides overwhelming support including a comma, the argument in favor is much stronger. Boghog (talk) 03:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Partial support: I think that "Smith, Alan; Brown, Jane; et al." makes sense. In the standard CS1 style, I support changing to use a semicolon before "et al.", not a comma, because other authors are separated from one another by semicolons. If the separator of choice is a comma (i.e. cs2 vanc), then use a comma before "et al." – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:39, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * mode does not change the style of separators used in the author and editor name lists:
 * cs1:
 * cs2:
 * but vanc does:
 * – the error here because the example uses enumerated names
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:28, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Good point. A semicolon should be used unless vanc or cs2 in which case a comma should be used. Boghog (talk) 04:28, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I corrected myself above. I'm not used to these new formatting parameters, but I knew there was some way to have commas separating names. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The new vauthors and veditors cause the module to rewrite their content as a last-first list and then render it in Vancouver system style without requiring vanc.
 * I corrected myself above. I'm not used to these new formatting parameters, but I knew there was some way to have commas separating names. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The new vauthors and veditors cause the module to rewrite their content as a last-first list and then render it in Vancouver system style without requiring vanc.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 14:05, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Partial support per Joensey95 for consistency with the existing formatting and how this is done in other style guides.  Imzadi 1979  →   04:07, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. Serial comma is the norm here, and so far no real objections have been raised. "Standard English grammar" is of course a red herring, as these are citations rather than sentences. My only concern would be to clarify usage when combining individuals with corporate authors. LeadSongDog come howl!  12:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Error message
Where can I find the error message saying that if I provide an archive-url, I also need to provide an archive-date? Debresser (talk) 01:31, 16 August 2015 (UTC)


 * In Module:Citation/CS1 search for the string .  A couple of lines below that is:  .   is defined in Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 02:12, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Or you can see it in action here:




 * Is that what you wanted? – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:02, 16 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I was looking for the string "|archiveurl= requires |archivedate=" Or it doesn't work like that?
 * In any case, it should be "|archive-url= requires |archive-date=" Can somebody fix that? Debresser (talk) 12:08, 16 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Fixed in Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox. Also fixed   requires , Check   value, and   suggested.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 12:21, 16 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Also fixed access-date, archive-date, doi-broken-date, lay-date, and publication-date in the call to  in Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 12:29, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Reprinted ed.
Hi,

Just noticed, on Thomas Lodge, that I get a CS1 warning about "Extra text" for a Cite book with the param "|edition=reprinted". I imagine this is not the intended behaviour. :-) Cheers, Xover (talk) 09:08, 20 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Fixed in the sandbox.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 10:42, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Let's add a collaboration parameter.
Large science projects will very often have massive list of authors. See for example, the 2012 Review of Particle Physics list of authors. The usual way of citing these massive collaboration is typically to have "J. Smith et al. (Collaboration name)" or similar (for an Wikipedia example, see .) This is usually achieve with the less-than-desirable a) |author1=W.-M. Yao (Particle Data Group) |author2=... |display-authors=1 |year=2012 which yields the broken/incorrect W.-M. Yao (Particle Data Group) et al. (2012), or sometimes with b) |last1=Yao |first1=W.-M. |last2=... |first2=... |coauthors=et al. (Particle Data Group) |year=2012 which yields a correct Yao, W.-M et al. (Particle Data Group) (2012), and other similar hacks.

The real/best solution would to add a collaboration that would allow to write c) |last1=Yao |first1=W.-M. |last2=... |first2=... |display-authors=1 |collaboration=Particle Data Group or alternatively d) |last1=Yao |first1=W.-M. |last2=... |first2=... |display-authors=1 |collaboration=Particle Data Group |collaboration-link=Particle Data Group in order to generate the correct Yao, W.-M et al. (Particle Data Group) (2012).

This should apply across the board, in both citation and styles. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 19:45, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * You can now do  rather than  . --Izno (talk) 16:47, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, but that's not really relevant to the collaboration parameter. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 01:50, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Which is why I marked it up with a small?... I suppose I could have done a  to be all Html 5-groovy... --Izno (talk) 03:02, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Discussions like this should be at Help talk:Citation Style 1. The Module talk:Citation/CS1 talk page is for discussion of how to code up the consensuses arrived at over there.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:11, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I really, really doubt anyone would oppose this. The current options (A and B, above) cannot possibly be what consensus wants. The only thing tricky bit would be whether we want a collaboration + collaboration-link, but personally I would leave that to template coders to decide on. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 12:39, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Any updates on this? Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 02:24, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Illustrated
The same sort of problem as for reprinted happens with edition=illustrated. Any word in edition= ending in ed can trigger the match. eg
 * I hope you have already solved this as per above. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:12, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I hope you have already solved this as per above. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:12, 26 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 23:20, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

COinS
When "|author=Y, X " is used we produce rft.au=Y%2C+X&amp;rft.aulast=Y%2C+X which results in Zotero - duplicating the author. Shyamal (talk) 05:09, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Use last and first -- Red rose64 (talk) 09:28, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Shyamal: Please do not experiment in the live module. At the beginning of your experiment a large number of articles (essentially everything that uses Module:Citation/CS1) was dumped on the job queue. In the two minute duration of your experiment, hundreds or thousands of articles were changed to reflect the changes caused by your experiment. It may be a while before these changed articles are restored.

author and authors are free-form parameters. Editors can and do write all kinds of name formats in them. last also suffers from this but usually to a much lesser extent. Human names being what they are, getting them right in the COinS must rely on editors getting them right in the cs1|2 templates.

Are you suggesting that the module should not duplicate the first author name in both  and  ? That can be done. Does this apply when there is only one author? What about when there is more than one author?

Should  always be filled even when there is no first in the template?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:01, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I do not see where I can check the COinS output from the sandbox version which was why I resorted to that foolishness. I have not evaluated all the situations but ideally Zotero import of COinS from Wikipedia articles should produce well-parsed output (whether there are issues in Zotero, I do not know). Users follow either the author= for one author and authorN= for multiple authors OR the alternative form of last= first= (single) and lastN= | firstN= (for multiple authors) - if the last+first/lastN+firstN versions both work fine with Zotero - the same should hold for the author/authorN - ideally. Currently using author results in two authors being listed after COinS parsing by Zotero. Shyamal (talk) 13:05, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * [Tangential question] - - I am unable to find any contents on LUA being handled a job to be queued - my impression was that the idea of LUA was that the code would be executed when a page is requested and that the only things that would get queued would be the caching and cluster synchronization of the code. Shyamal (talk) 15:43, 31 August 2015 (UTC)


 * That is not how I understand it. I was once told that the server farm caches fully rendered copies of each article.  Each time an article is edited, the cached copy is replaced with a newly rendered version.  Change to template code takes a while to propagate to all affected pages.  This is why it is sometimes necessary to purge or null edit pages.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:40, 31 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Changes to the the module sandbox can be evaluated by using the /new versions of the cs1|2 templates, for example:
 * To see what the raw module output looks like, wrap the template in :
 * which, for this example gives:
 * I am not at all sure I understand what you wrote. So rather than attempt a reply based on a misunderstanding, can I ask you to restate and perhaps provide cs1|2 examples of what you mean?
 * which, for this example gives:
 * I am not at all sure I understand what you wrote. So rather than attempt a reply based on a misunderstanding, can I ask you to restate and perhaps provide cs1|2 examples of what you mean?
 * I am not at all sure I understand what you wrote. So rather than attempt a reply based on a misunderstanding, can I ask you to restate and perhaps provide cs1|2 examples of what you mean?
 * I am not at all sure I understand what you wrote. So rather than attempt a reply based on a misunderstanding, can I ask you to restate and perhaps provide cs1|2 examples of what you mean?


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:42, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

http://oi57.tinypic.com/zl3f3o.jpg - You are right it seems to be a problem with the author usage - notice that the first author alone gets duplicated in Test 3 Shyamal (talk) 15:39, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Test 1 ✅
 * Test 2
 * Test 3
 * Test 4 ✅


 * What does the red rectangle mean? What does (first) mean?  As a guess, these mean that Zotero found   without   which may or may not be an error because cs1|2 does not have a parameter for corporate authors so they are usually placed in last or author.


 * I have extracted the author metadata from your examples:
 * Test 1 ✅
 * Test 2
 * Test 3
 * Test 4 ✅
 * It is not clear to me that the way Module:Citation/CS1 is doing things is correct. Why does the module concatenate the values from first and last into a value for   when that author is already identified in   and  ?  Is this duplication necessary?
 * Test 3
 * Test 4 ✅
 * It is not clear to me that the way Module:Citation/CS1 is doing things is correct. Why does the module concatenate the values from first and last into a value for   when that author is already identified in   and  ?  Is this duplication necessary?
 * Test 4 ✅
 * It is not clear to me that the way Module:Citation/CS1 is doing things is correct. Why does the module concatenate the values from first and last into a value for   when that author is already identified in   and  ?  Is this duplication necessary?
 * Test 4 ✅
 * It is not clear to me that the way Module:Citation/CS1 is doing things is correct. Why does the module concatenate the values from first and last into a value for   when that author is already identified in   and  ?  Is this duplication necessary?
 * It is not clear to me that the way Module:Citation/CS1 is doing things is correct. Why does the module concatenate the values from first and last into a value for   when that author is already identified in   and  ?  Is this duplication necessary?
 * It is not clear to me that the way Module:Citation/CS1 is doing things is correct. Why does the module concatenate the values from first and last into a value for   when that author is already identified in   and  ?  Is this duplication necessary?
 * It is not clear to me that the way Module:Citation/CS1 is doing things is correct. Why does the module concatenate the values from first and last into a value for   when that author is already identified in   and  ?  Is this duplication necessary?
 * It is not clear to me that the way Module:Citation/CS1 is doing things is correct. Why does the module concatenate the values from first and last into a value for   when that author is already identified in   and  ?  Is this duplication necessary?
 * It is not clear to me that the way Module:Citation/CS1 is doing things is correct. Why does the module concatenate the values from first and last into a value for   when that author is already identified in   and  ?  Is this duplication necessary?


 * Perhaps an experiment is in order. I have hacked Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox so that   and   are only filled when the first author is listed in the cs1|2 template with first and last.


 * I have extracted the author metadata from the hacked version of the module using your same examples:
 * Test 1
 * Test 2
 * Test 3
 * Test 4
 * Test 3
 * Test 4
 * Test 4
 * Test 4
 * Test 4


 * So, do your test again using your examples and tell me if the hack makes a positive difference.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:40, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes! Definitely looks the way it ought to now. Thanks. Shyamal (talk) 02:23, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll leave the experiment in the code for now.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 09:55, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I missed you other query - the red rectangle shows that the first author is getting duplicated - I suspect that  is used in cases where only one author in a long list is given and expanded automatically as et al. by Zotero. I hope your fix has no side-effects and that it will be incorporated into the main code at some point. Thanks. Shyamal (talk) 12:16, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 9 September 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 16:10, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Module:Citation/CS1 → Module:Citation/Formatting – CS1 stands for Citation Style 1, but this module is used for Citation Style 1, Citation Style 2, and even Vancouver-style citations. The name "CS1" is a confusing anachronism. Kaldari (talk) 23:20, 9 September 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 09:16, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As long as this is done in a way that doesn't break citation formatting during the process of the move, it sounds ok. I have frequently complained on Help talk:Citation Style 1 that decisions are made there that affect other citation styles without watchers of those other styles being notified of any discussion, so this sort of name change seems like a move in the right direction to me. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:43, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, if we're going to open this can of worms and move away from "CS1" as the name, we should consider whether "Citation" is the right name for the module, since some people may think that the module is used only for Citation.


 * Personally, I think the current name is fine, since anyone who gets here is probably at least a little bit technical and will read the documentation. Let's modify the documentation to make it very clear where this module is used, then call it a day. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:49, 17 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment: I hope that User:Mr Stradivarius or User:Trappist the monk will add their opinions before this is closed, in case the rename turns out to be a bad idea, or in case simultaneous renames are needed. Even if it's a good idea, we don't want to break the world when closing (speaking from bad experience). EdJohnston (talk) 17:26, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

oppose: This feels like a make-work project. If proposer were a regular contributor to discussions here or at Help talk:Citation Style 1 and were proposer to have offered more substantial reasoning than the unsupported declaration that [the] name "CS1" is a confusing anachronism, then it's possible that I might be persuaded that this isn't a make-work project. There are twenty-three cs1|2 templates and their sandboxes that will need to be touched, this module (which will require tweaking so we don't break links to its submodules and sandboxes – which should also move if the main module moves), a deal of documentation, and perhaps other stuff that I haven't thought of that must at least be looked at.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:40, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, it definitely confused me :P Kaldari (talk) 22:53, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * What's confusing about the first two sentences of the documentation? "This module and associated sub-modules support the Citation Style 1 and Citation Style 2 citation templates. In general, it is not intended to be called directly, but is called by one of the core CS1 and CS2 templates." – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:53, 18 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose since the module is in use, and since apparently it must be so crucial to the functionality of this site that it is cascade-protected. Leave it be; moving a module causes more problems than its worth since redirects do not exist in the "Module:" namespace. Moving this page will have severe negative consequences. Steel1943  (talk) 02:00, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * oppose This has been at this page location for a long time and probably everyone concerned with it knows what it is, what it’s called. It’s name is not in English but it’s not an article or other page meant for readers of the encyclopaedia, so it’s name does not have to be in English. Many templates and modules have similarly terse names. As for “formatting” it is no more concerned with that then every template on WP that generates HTML, i.e. most of them.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 05:08, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You completely misunderstood the point here. Nobody said anything like that. The problem is that it uses the name "CS1" to refer to CS1, CS2 and Vancouver citation styles. nyuszika7h (talk) 16:37, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The only part of Vancouver system styling supported by cs1|2 is the author/editor name-list styling and that, incompletely.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:30, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:30, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Oppose per Trappist and because the Module's documentation is clear. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:47, 19 September 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Recent change
I think the recent change you've made here seems to have changed cite news so that page numbers are simply given as a number, so that for example a citation will now read "14 December 1912. 3. Retrieved 26 August 2015." instead of the old "14 December 1912. p. 3. Retrieved 26 August 2015." (bolding mine). At least I think it was the edit you made here that changed this, but templates/modules at this level of intricacy are beyond my pay-grade. If it is here, can this please be reversed? Example using cite news template:



Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 18:53, 26 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Fixed. The function   is used to test the state of meta-parameter  .  If set to ,  , or   then set the prefix meta-parameters   and   to empty strings.  But,   also considers nopp (empty or not present) to be a valid parameter value so the subsequent code dutifully set   and   to empty strings.  In all other uses of the function, the meta-parameter that is tested is the same meta-parameter that is set to an empty string when it does not have an acceptable value.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 19:56, 26 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me now. Thanks! Jenks24 (talk) 20:12, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 6 December 2015
Please implement these changes from the sandbox to restore the ability to use "#" in the "episode-link" parameter of cite episode, which was possible until these recent changes to the module. This problem was discussed at Help talk:Citation Style 1. As explained there, linking to individual episode entries is valid, widely done and works, but now an error is displayed for no apparent reason. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 09:39, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

 Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 09:39, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * This module, given its wide usage, is usually changed about once a month. Also, the discussion there does not seem finished. I've disabled the edit-protected request for both reasons. --Izno (talk) 16:24, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what the update frequency has to do with this problem. As it stands now, there are likely thousands of articles displaying warnings that will confuse editors. These errors shouldn't be displaying and weren't yesterday. When the fix is so simple, I don't see why it shouldn't be fixed. Since you're not somebody who can fix the problem, I'm reactivating the request. Best let an admin sort it out, since only admins can edit this module. As for being still under discussion, there are two parts to the thread at Help talk:Citation Style 1. The issue regarding ! is still being discussed but there's no reason why this can't be fixed. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 17:03, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Please don't revert another editor's yes. The technical "fix" may be trivial, but it is not sensible at this time without other people agreeing to implement it at this time. (And just because someone made the supposed fix in the sandbox does not mean they necessarily agree with it.) --Izno (talk) 18:00, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * There is nothing stopping an edit request being reactivated. In fact there are specific instructions in the template that say Set the answered or ans parameter to no to reactivate your request. Only admins can satisfy the request since this template is fully protected and, since you are not an admin, nor do you even hold the Templateeditor permission, you can't adequately satisfy the request. This problem was not a problem before recent edits. Nor were many other problems that have cropped up since the changes. This indicates that the changes were not adequately tested before implementation. I've been writing code, both personally and professionally, for 40 years and would never have made such changes without adequate testing. Granted, much of my professional work was mission critical, dealing with issues of national security, but I can accept that there is not an urgent need to revert the changes fully because these errors are not affecting "the mission" too much. However, implementing a simple change that merely reverts the addition of an error is to be expected. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 08:23, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * consensus should be obtained before formally making the request. (from WP:Edit requests). The standing consensus in the context of these modules, as I have already pointed out, is that the main template is synced from the sandbox only once in every while. If you are willing to challenge that standing consensus, please do so. Reactivating an edit request is not how you are going to get a change made either to the template or the standing consensus. Please do not add the edit protected template merely to attract attention to the change, as it clutters up the relevant edit request category with unactionable requests. also from WP:Edit requests. (Re)activating this edit request has the exact effect proscribed by this sentence.  Administrators/templateeditors may be the only editors able to respond to a fully-protected edit request in the affirmative (that is, may implement the changes). However, I see little reason why any editor responding in the negative could not do so, where that editor knows of a consensus against that change (whether because of evaluation of an RFC related to that change or because of standing consensus as in this case).  changes were not adequately tested I would tend to agree that the module does not have a robust set of test cases, but that's not relevant to this specific request; in fact, an editor on Help talk:CS1 has raised that concern in one or the other of the recent threads after this update. Aside: It is, however, a monumental task with a module of this size.  The rest of your commentary is ad hominem/argument to authority and thus irrelevant. --Izno (talk) 12:23, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Consensus isn't necessary to request that a change that effectively broke a template be reverted. Before the change there was no error. After the change there was an error when there shouldn't have been. You have to use a little common sense here. The whole point of adding edit fully-protected is to draw attention to an edit request. The particular section that you've quoted from is about the possibility of a request being controversial. It is meant to stop people saying things like "please add a parameter to display an image" and using a template drawing attention to a discussion that really needs to be fully discussed. A request to implement a simple change to remove an error introduced by an editor is hardly controversial.
 * I see little reason why any editor responding in the negative could not do so Of course any editor can respond, but the point that you are missing is that you are clearly not in a position to action the request so, while you can comment, you are not in a position to demand that the edit request not be reactivated, which is what you seem to be doing. It's really up to somebody who can action the request to make that demand. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 13:26, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * as far as I can tell from the comments here, it's agreed that this will be fixed at the next round of updates. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:20, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, that seems to be the case but, in the meantime, editors are going to be confused when they see misleading warning messages about things that are actually perfectly OK. For me, that's a big headache in the TV project. -- Aussie Legend  ( ✉ ) 14:30, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

endode
There is a mistake for OL: "endode". Someone should replace it with "encode". --Obsuser (talk) 23:49, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Fixed. Thanks.  That particular typo has been there since 8 April 2013.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 00:33, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It hasn’t been changed yet (it’s in Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration)... --Obsuser (talk) 02:10, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * At en:wp, all changes are made first in the sandbox versions of the cs1|2 modules. Then, once a month or so, we update the live modules with all of the recent changes. So the fix is.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 03:06, 14 December 2015 (UTC)


 * OK. --Obsuser (talk) 03:22, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

False error message on cite encyclopedia
There is a template called cite DNBIE that has been minding its own business for some years. It is a wrapper around cite encyclopedia until fairly recently it has not had any problems. However now it is reporting an error message in red:

The reason for this has nothing to do with the title line, but is because the encyclopedia parameter is:
 * encyclopedia =Dictionary of National Biography Index and Epitome
 * encyclopedia =Dictionary of National Biography Index and Epitome

Please fix the underlying code ASAP so that it does not report this error as linking in the encyclopedia link ought not to be discouraged in this way. -- PBS (talk) 23:29, 26 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I have found a simple work around hack. If the lead string is a wiki link then the warning goes away (Simples!)
 * So while this
 * gives an error. This does not:
 * -- PBS (talk) 23:47, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * See How to fix this external link error?
 * -- PBS (talk) 23:47, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * See How to fix this external link error?


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 12:16, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

is an odd duck. If there is no title then encyclopedia, if set, is promoted to title (this is why there is no missing title error message). It does this for the metadata. So the error message was correct in a sense. I'll see about improving that.

The test is intended to catch exactly the condition that you illustrated in your first post. Links to external cites do not belong in title-holding parameters because that corrupts the metadata. You should not rely on your work-around as a permanent fix. Even though there is no visible error message, the metadata are still corrupt.



produces this metadata for title:

Why does not use title?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:10, 27 September 2015 (UTC)


 * title is an optional parameter, which is usually set. I have not given it a value in this example so that it is clear that the problem lies in the handling of encyclopedia.
 * But even if title is set it will not affect the outcome according to the documentation (as title gets mapped to article in the case of ) so the alleged problem and the fault in the error message will remain the same. -- PBS (talk) 01:19, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I did say that I will work on fixing the error message.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 10:14, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "The test is intended to catch exactly the condition that you illustrated in your first post. Links to external cites do not belong in title-holding parameters because that corrupts the metadata." Who claims it is a corruption to pass an external link into the encyclopedia parameter? -- PBS (talk) 01:23, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You can see the corrupted data in Trappist's note above. I suggest putting the URL into one of the provided URL parameters, e.g. url, chapter-url. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:27, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * A decision was taken long ago to keep title and url separate. There are separate keywords in the metadata for them.  Because  promotes encyclopedia to title when it can, a url in encyclopedia ends up in title in violation of that decision to keep url and title separate.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 10:14, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Here's a hack of that links to a wikisource article, links to the Internet archive image of the book, and links to the DNB article in wikipedia: which produces this; no errors and cleaner metadata: —Trappist the monk (talk) 10:14, 27 September 2015 (UTC)


 * @I a aware that such a change can be made but in doing this you are altering the title which is "Dictionary of National Biography Index and Epitome" (hence the format in the template). I presume you have not looked at the template as the link is in the page parameter. The index only has a very short entry for a subject (usually about a couple of dozen entries a page). If it is acceptable to include a url in pages I fail to see why it is not acceptable to include it in the parameter encyclopedia.
 * @Jonesey95 Trappist the monk. Where there a consensus that a change would be made in cite encyclopedia the so that a URL could not be placed in the encyclopedia parameter? -- PBS (talk) 18:51, 29 September 2015 (UTC)


 * , the discussion was here. I think we might be over-reaching a bit with our URL detection, given that we do not offer a * -url parameter that accompanies each parameter that would be useful to match with a URL. As the error category continues to populate, it has become clear that there is a desire among editors to provide useful links to match journal and encyclopedia, for example. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:21, 29 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't know that you should make such a presumption about what I have or have not done. The point of my example was to show that article, title, work can all be used in  without error and with cleaner metadata, not to explore the minutia of .  I know that the book title is Dictionary of National Biography Index and Epitome but I chose leave them separate as  does merely for the sake of example.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 21:44, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Template:Cite_episode issue
This template is causing Template:Cite_episode to do the following: -- Lantrix // Talk // Contrib // 17:02, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Appending %7CAudio: to URLs in links
 * Show the error Check |episode-link= value (help); Check |series-link= value (help); even though the links are valid
 * Render the series= with more than one word to show only the last word in the link
 * It appears Lantrix is referring to reference #732 in Endorsements for the Republican Party presidential primaries, 2016:
 * GoingBatty (talk) 18:29, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Per Template:Cite episode, the parameters episode-link and series-link are for linking to a Wikipedia article, whereas url is for the URL. Therefore, I think this is what you want:
 * Maybe someone else can figure out why there are two periods at the end of the citation. Thanks!  GoingBatty (talk) 18:37, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
 * - sorry, my bad. GoingBatty (talk) 18:40, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Maybe someone else can figure out why there are two periods at the end of the citation. Thanks!  GoingBatty (talk) 18:37, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
 * - sorry, my bad. GoingBatty (talk) 18:40, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Maybe someone else can figure out why there are two periods at the end of the citation. Thanks!  GoingBatty (talk) 18:37, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
 * - sorry, my bad. GoingBatty (talk) 18:40, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Updating help
Excuse me if this is the wrong forum, but I am trying to update the Haitian Creole Wikipedia’s version of this file and WhatamIdoing mentioned that would probably be able to figure this out. When I copy from here and paste to there, then preview what that update would do, I keep seeing the same error appear where I would expect to see well‑formed citations. It says there is a Lua error in Module:Citation/CS1 on line 2968 (a line that doesn’t exist, before or after the potential update): “ ”. Thank you. — LLarson &#160; (said&#8239;&amp;&#8239;done) 21:24, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
 * You must copy the whole suite; it won't work if you don't. Copy these:
 * Module:Citation/CS1
 * Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration
 * Module:Citation/CS1/Whitelist
 * Module:Citation/CS1/Date validation
 * Module:Citation/CS1/Identifiers
 * Module:Citation/CS1/Utilities
 * Module:Citation/CS1/COinS
 * Module:Citation/CS1/Suggestions
 * Probably best to copy them to sandbox versions so that you can test to make sure everything is right before you dump this whole very big change onto your unsuspecting editors. Then, once you are convinced that all is working right, and you have made whatever local changes you want to make, you can overwrite the live version from the sandbox (again, all of the modules).


 * If you need more help, shout.


 * And yes, line 2968 does exist in the English version of Module:Citation/CS1. The error message occurred because ht:Module:Citation/CS1/Date validation does not have the required function set_selected_modules.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 00:17, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * and here's more to do:
 * copy Help:CS1 errors to ht:Help:CS1 errors
 * create ht:Category:CS1 and the subcategories that it holds so that all of the module's categorization works properly.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:19, 19 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Just so I’m sure I understand, you recommend that I copy the contents of en:Module:Citation/CS1/[suite files] into ht:Module:Citation/CS1/[suite files]/Sandbox and then once all of the subpage sandboxes are up‑to‑date, that I replace their parent pages with the sandboxed subpage version? (Background that may not be applicable: I’m not sure if the sandbox would in fact be necessary as long as I updated the suite all at once—there are just three files to go; it was our intention was to move the files and have them working there in English and only then to translate the localizable strings.) Thank you again, — LLarson &#160; (said&#8239;&amp;&#8239;done) 20:39, 19 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Yep, I do. But, I'm conditioned by the way things must be done here where the module suite is used by a couple million pages.  At ht.wiki where the number of pages using the module suite is significantly fewer, not such a problem.  There is an update to the modules scheduled for tomorrow 20 February 2016 so you might wait for that or just take copies from the en.wiki sandboxes.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 22:44, 19 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Fantastic. Thanks so much! — LLarson &#160; (said&#8239;&amp;&#8239;done) 22:55, 19 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I just saw that you helped update on —thank you!! This is not urgent and it looks like you have a lot on your hands today, but I have two questions: 1. When I copy en:Category:CS1 and its subcategories to ht:Category:CS1, how deep do I need to go? (there might be over 200 including the sub-subcategories) and 2. I can’t figure out why some entire reference areas are now italicized there (incorrect) but not here (correct), when they’re using essentially the same references. Thoughts? Thank you again! — LLarson (said &#38; done) 16:14, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Most important are the error and maintenance cats; there are only 46 of them. The properties cats won't help fix malformed cites so aren't as important.  Perhaps add a few whenever you have nothing better to do ...
 * cs1|2 citations are wrapped in  tags which browsers tend to style in italics. Find a local admin who can modify ht:MedyaWiki:Common.css to contain this:

/* Reset italic styling set by user agent */ cite, dfn { font-style: inherit; }

/* Straight quote marks for */ q { quotes: '"' '"' "'" "'"; }
 * I included the css for  because cs1|2 uses that tag as well. Both of those are at the top of en:MediaWiki:Common.css
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 16:54, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Trappist the monk, thanks for this.
 * I'm hearing that we should have been using Special:Import for this, because it reportedly finds and copies all of the dependencies automagically. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:08, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

ref stripmarker in |title= at position 1
When I (of course incorrectly) add an tag inside a citation, I'm getting the error message "" I'm wondering if we can be a bit more helpful to less experienced editors who wouldn't understand the error message at all. How about: ""PanchoS (talk) 10:39, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Was the error message's help text not helpful? I would rather enhance that than create more verbose error messages.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:09, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Access-date localization
Hello, can someone help me? I want to localize Cite web from English Wikipedia but I am failing to localize "access-date". Is it possible to change the date format of "access-date" field to another in module configurations? (currently it is YYYY-MM-DD).--Zygimantus (talk) 08:00, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
 * This question answered at Help talk:CS1 errors/Archive 2. One conversation in only one place please.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 11:24, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Fails on several date formats
This module fails with following formats: — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 19:56, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * 1955/56 (some periodicals, see Serbo-Croatian for examples);
 * 2014-06 (for dates without day in YYYY-MM-DD format);
 * See the documentation at Help:Citation_Style_1. The YYYY-YYYY format and MMM YYYY formats will each of these, respectively, so that they are less ambiguous and eliminate the error message. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:46, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * This flies in face of WP:DATERET, and is not forbidden or discouraged in MOS. In other words, it's a bug. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 21:39, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * See DATERANGE for guidance on the first item. The second item is indicated as "May be misinterpreted" in the acceptable date format table on that same page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:39, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
 * As has pointed out, the first format you list is explicitly not permitted in the first sentence at WP:DATERANGE.  The second is listed in the table at MOS:BADDATEFORMAT. Its inclusion there is primarily because it can be confused with a year range.  Further, the templates, and Citation Style 1, implement a subset of MOS permitted dates.  Information on what is implemented is given at Help:Citation Style 1. &mdash; Makyen (talk) 03:19, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

leading zeroes for days in dates
ISO 8601 says dates should be formatted as 2014-11-04 (with a leading zero on the day) but neither "04 November 2014" nor "November 04, 2014" are parsed as valid dates, while "4 November 2014" and "November 4, 2014" are. A discussion about whether otherwise non-ISO-8601 dates should allow a leading zero will be/is/was (depending on when you read this) at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers. Banaticus (talk) 21:56, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Northern and southern hemispheres
Should the months corresponding to a season depend on whether one is in the northern or the southern hemisphere? GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 02:48, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Seasons and months have different correspondences throughout the world. There is a concise explanation and style guidance at the Manual of Style. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:57, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Valid years
So this means that if y is the current year, dates in y+2 become valid on January 1, y+1 (and will remain permanently so). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 15:11, 3 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, because publishers sometimes make a work available before the printed date. By allowing the date to be current year + 2, the module accommodates these publishers while still catching some typos.


 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:07, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Spelling variations
I’m using this Module on the Haitian Creole Wikipedia and in swapping out the English month names for those in Kreyòl, I have a problem. Some months have more than one acceptable format: August arguably has five different spellings—depending on context—and October has at least two. How should this be coded? — LLarson (said &amp; done) 18:26, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
 * In function ?  Do as you have done for the other months.    is a table of  /  pairs where each unique spelling of a month name is a key.  For example if you wanted capitalized and uncapitalized month names you could write:
 * I can see that you are going to have problems with  because it contains a unicode character.  Because unicode characters don't appear in English months the code is not setup to handle them.  I'll tweak that for you.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 19:00, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much! It’s finally working properly :D — LLarson (said &amp; done) 21:24, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much! It’s finally working properly :D — LLarson (said &amp; done) 21:24, 27 February 2016 (UTC)