Module talk:WikiProject banner/Archive 2

new implementation of WikiProject banner nesting
Recent code updates have made it possible to significantly improve the handling of WikiProject banner nesting, deprecating the yes system. See Template talk:WikiProjectBannerShell for more details. Happy‑melon 19:22, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Template:WikiProject Food and drink
Template:WikiProject Food and drink is expanding oddly at Talk:Candy pumpkin in that it takes up about six inches, most of which lacks text. If you have some free time, please take a look. Thanks. -- Suntag  ☼  21:00, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * What browser, etc etc etc etc? Happy‑melon 08:50, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I tested that page, and it seems fine in all three of my browsers. The hide/show button inside the food and drink box works as it should for me and causes no empty space.
 * Suntag: Have you tried to purge the page and bypass your browser cache? Since someone might have fixed the error since you saw it, since we don't see it.
 * And as Happy-melon said: If you still see the problem, then you need to tell a lot more about what browser, plug-ins, user-scripts, gadgets, operating system, screen resolution and so on you are using.
 * --David Göthberg (talk) 14:21, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I just checked this and its the same for me. Windows Vista, IE 7.0.6001.18000, 1440x900 pixels, I've done everything possible to clear my cache, my gadgets include HotCat, reftools, The JavaScript Standard Library, a compatibility library for browsers that lack full support for JavaScript 1.6. This includes Internet Explorer, Opera, and Safari., using the Monobook skin.  My subpages include Huggle.css, Lupin settings in my monobook.css], and in my monobook.js a code that transforms sigs to date time format, extra edit buttons, both the Lupin scripts, something for WP:US, rollback summary, pyrospirit metadata, watchlist notifier, toolbox for article stats and DOI adder, and extended use tabs. Screenshot coming. [[User:Stepshep| §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  22:24, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Pic §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  22:26, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I can confirm the problem on my end, using IE7. Operating system and display size is irrelevant (I'm using WinXP, 1280x1024). Clearing cache, logging on and off, etc. doesn't fix the problem. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:59, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd like to note this started happening to me when this template was converted to the new ombox tmbox stuff. §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  01:26, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey, it seems to be working there! §hep  •   ¡Talk to me!  00:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

They're back
Not sure how long this has been going on for but at Template:OH-Project, the box that says we're missing categories is back. I have the subpage that is supposed to make that not appear in palce. Any ideas? §hep  •   ¡Talk to me!  18:19, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * NA-Class was recently included as the 'catch-all' option on the 'short scale', so it became a compulsory category for the short scale. If, as OH-project is, the long scale is used, NA shouldn't be required; I've corected the parser functions to correct this, so  Happy‑melon 00:13, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  02:24, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Case sensitivity
Is there anyway to allow for an uppercase Y in the =yes part of the code? For example, the first banner here has England=yes and the second has England=Yes, not showing the sub-project banner.

—Borgardetalk 08:49, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, tf 3. —Ms2ger (talk) 14:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That allows for "England" or "england" but not "Yes" or "yes", though doesn't it? Paulbrock (talk) 22:23, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The "E" and "e" are already supported, will that allow for the "Y"es and "y"es? —Borgardetalk 02:48, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Sweet, that works. I tested in in the sandbox, I will update the code shortly. Thanks Ms2ger. —Borgardetalk 02:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah I see, the key is the lc which converts the parameter value to lower case I guess... all a bit beyond my simple coding. Paulbrock (talk) 03:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Can the colour of the banner be altered?
Is it possible for me to change the vanilla-like colour of the banner for the purposes of 'my' Wikiproject, or do they all have to be the same? And if I can, what code etc do I use to do it? Sticky Parkin 20:49, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, the talk page message box styles were standardised in 2005. See the guideline Talk page templates. And that style has several times since then been re-confirmed in several big discussions. So, since it makes me curios: Why do you want to deviate from the standard colours?
 * --David Göthberg (talk) 21:19, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Embedded alert template isn't showing its show/hide link
See WikiProject Louisville template (using WPBannerMeta) where I set BOTTOM_TEXT to WikiProject Louisville alerts, which uses hidden for showing/hiding the alerts. The alert box's show/hide link won't show with normal usage of WikiProject Louisville, except when it's nested. Is this a bug in WPBannerMeta or a bug in WikiProject Louisville alerts or a bug in hidden? Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 16:27, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It works for me, both nested and unnested. What browser are you using? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 00:19, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I am using Firefox 3, and I just tested it against IE 7. It looks like it's not a matter of browser, but of skin.  I'm using Cologne Blue, where the bug is appearing, but with the default skin, it works fine.  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 00:25, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Does anyone know what is causing this problem? Is it a skin issue or an issue with this template (or other templates I refer to)?  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 22:18, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I'm not sure; I can replicate the problem by changing to cologneblue skin, so it's clearly skin-related. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 23:54, 3 November 2008 (UTC)


 * There has been a change to our alert that doesn't really fix the problem but instead just spills out the alert text when the banner isn't nested. The alert text needs to be hidden with a show link whether the banner is nested or not.  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 15:21, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That edit was to make the text visible to users without javascript (previously it was inaccessible). I'm honestly not sure why it doesn't work in cologneblue; I have asked at the village pump, maybe someone will have  an answer there. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 23:44, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your work on this! There's a problem with this latest approach though.  I have JavaScript enabled, and the alert text in an unnested project template is all showing, when it should be rolled up with a Show link.  I understand the need to show all the text to those with JavaScript disabled, but that shouldn't be the standard behavior.  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 00:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I have Javascript enabled too, and it looks fine. Another skin issue?  §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  00:10, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, Stevie, I know, this is the problem I'm trying to get my head around. The issue is entirely unrelated to the recent edit to, as evidenced by the way it still recurs after I converted it to use CollapsibleTables instead.  If you try viewing any other page using any other skin, you can see that the uncollapsed-by-default appearance is not the standard behavior.  I'm doing my best to resolve this issue; just be patient (but keep prodding me if it seems I've forgotten!). <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 00:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * If there's no requirement for the project banner to be based off WPBannerMeta, I may move it back to its prior design, until this issue can be resolved. It was doing all right before being standardized anyway.  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 16:07, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This should now be fixed. Does it work for you? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 17:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's working now. Thanks!  What was changed to make it work?  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 18:34, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The CollapsibleTables code itself had a subtle error which affected the cologneblue skin only (it was looking for an id that doesn't exist in the cologneblue skin metadata). It wasn't spotted before because, TBH, no one uses cologneblue! :D That doesn't mean we can allow such random problems to persist, however, so thanks for bringing this to our attention. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 22:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Shorten banner that clutters talk-pages
14-Nov-2008: Those banners were interesting the first several times, but now those ads to "participate" are getting old. Let's shorten those banner-boxes halfway by reducing the wording 60% (but leave images and other stuff the same for now). Perhaps try:

Compare that short box with the 36-word original wording:


 * [ Guitar images added at 19:19, 14 Nov 2008. -Wikid77 ]

The shorter box is still tall enough to allow a side image. Also, the shorter box says "or" as in "or see a list of open tasks" indicating a reader doesn't have to join to see the tasks.

Why the short form works: Psychological studies have shown that keeping a sentence under 6 phrases (only 4 prepositions) is much easier to read. The short wording has 5 sub-phrases, but the long wording has 12. That's why the extra irritation. The long form is not like "I will not talk in class" repeated 8 times, it's like a whole essay repeated each time. Each essay gives the impression the reader must stop and read: very aggravating.

Those banners (each advertising "would like to participate...") are stacked 3, 4, or 8 deep in talk-pages. The current repeated, windy, rote wording might make Wikipedia seem foolishly repetitive to readers, but the problem has been mainly to find short wording with similar meaning. The WikiProjects aren't foolish, it's just that it takes time to improve all the various areas of Wikipedia. Now is a good time to shorten those myriad banners. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:34, 14 Nov 2008


 * I have edited the examples above to use the correct widths and styles for talkpage message boxes, which significantly reduces the height of both. I don't think that the shorter wording thereby makes full use of the space available. I will not make the WP:POINTy gesture of sticking tags on the statements above, but some links to these "psychological studies" would be helpful for verification.  While some of the project banners I have seen contain content that is entirely gratuitous in length, I don't think that this is something that can be very effectively mandated from 'on high': banner wordings are very much project-specific. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 17:46, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I substituted the actual guitar image (above), showing the comparison using a real WikiProject image. The "psychological studies" can be traced with efforts of "Plain English" (search Google). -Wikid77 (talk) 19:19, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Although I accept that this is the image used by WikiProject musical instruments, it's a rather contrived example to use an image that is not square. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 17:02, 16 November 2008 (UTC)


 * This is not the appropriate venue to bring about changes such as this. The appropriate place would be at WT:COUNCIL and all WikiProjects would have to be notified.  §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  17:40, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * 14-Nov-2008: Thanks for the advice; I figured people in each area should be consulted, so now to the next group. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:19, 14 Nov 2008

Nested title not centered like in other project banners
This is a very minor issue, but still a little nit I noticed. Project banners based off of WPBannerMeta have their titles left-aligned when nested instead of being centered like the titles of other project banners. Could this title be centered, or can we be given an option to align the title? Thanks! Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 15:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Browser/OS please? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 16:41, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how that matters, but it's Firefox 3.0.3 and Windows Vista (all updates applied). Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 17:11, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh believe me, all rendering/display problems are browser-related :D . Even though it's the banner that needs to be altered, it's the browser that's revealing the problem, and if I can't see it on my browser (obviously if I could I'd already have tried to fix it :D ) it makes it much harder to reproduce and hence fix. Can you tell me, please, what you see at User:Happy-melon/sandbox5?? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 17:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The first two nested project titles are centered, and the third appears left-aligned. Beyond browser rendering differences, I wonder if this could be a skin issue again (arghh, I love Cologne Blue!).  :)  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 19:00, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * In IE7, the first project title appears more centered than when viewing with Firefox, but it still sits significantly to the left of the first two. Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 19:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi. This discussion also seems related.  If you have the Justify Paragraphs option ticked, it aligns the banner name to the left.--Rockfang (talk) 17:47, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * When I unchecked "Justify Paragraphs", the nested title centered itself. Of course, I want to leave this checked, as that's how I like to read the pages.  So, I continue to consider this a very minor bug.  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 00:29, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it is minor. I still hope someone is able to fix it though. :) Rockfang (talk) 02:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't worth fixing. The left alignment is kind of an eyesore.  :)  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 03:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Bizzarre though it sounds, I intend to be able to fix this when I get a response here. In the meantime can I just check that everyone sees the header below centered, even if it does linewrap unexpectedly? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 08:44, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It's a lot more centered than before, but it still leans to the left just a tad. Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 16:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Same here.--Rockfang (talk) 17:36, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * How bizzarre. Any chance you could post a screenshot? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 16:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * And say if the second one looks any different to the first? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 16:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's a screenshot from me Image:WPOH Banner.png (yep bad name). The top of the banners are way to big. §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  17:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The first and second look identical. I'm a little too busy to post a screenshot right now, but should have time over the weekend.  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 19:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's a screenshot of the above that I just took: Image:NestedBannerMetaExample.jpg. Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 18:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Aha! I see what you're concerned about. The space between the WikiProject link and the "rated X class" bracket is in the centre of the banner.  It's only because the text on the left "WikiProject Musical Instruments" is longer than the text on the right "Rated Start-Class") that it appears to be off-centre.  If I lined up a number of different banners with different texts, the 'centreline' of the headers would become more obvious.  Now, if we can work out why the show/hide button and the actual header text appear on separate lines, we'll be in business. I suspect I know what's going on there, but not how to fix it; no combination of attributes I've managed to apply can make the subtable centre in the cell without using width=100%; those two floating spans screw everything up.  Does anyone have any bright ideas? Because at the moment I'm reduced to saying that the only way to both centre the titles and align their midpoints (which will beautify pages like Talk:Duduk no end) is to get yet another modification to the CollapsibleTables code for a way to manually position the show/hide button.  Again, it's functionality that could be useful elsewhere, but it seems a very brute-force solution.  Then again, the set of nested tables and cross-styled divs that this template currently uses isn't particularly elegant itself.... Any clever ideas? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 20:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Padding at the bottom of banner
On my systems (Windows XP-SP3 using Firefox 3.04) project banners created with the Wikibannermeta template, such as the one above, have no padding at the bottom causing the colored assement blocks to directly touch the banner border. This is IMHO ugly. Is this behavior intentional or is it a glitch? (TimothyRias (talk) 15:39, 17 November 2008 (UTC))
 * <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 16:03, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, looks much better. (TimothyRias (talk) 07:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC))

Default class
Hi, I am quite new to the banner meta and have a couple of questions. The first is: if the class parameter is undefined or nonsense, how is the article categorised? (It seems to be depend on the namespace.)

Secondly, there are a lot of unneeded classes. (Ones like "Merge-Class" don't seem to be in widespread use yet.) I created them all as suggested but am now slightly regretting it, as the categories have become somewhat cluttered. So the question is: is it possible to opt-out of some of these classes? Opting-out would mean that the classes would act as if they were undefined and the banner would not prompt you to create the categories.

A suggestion for the future: create a template for the documentation page of the project template?

I hope all this makes sense. Thanks and keep up the good work. MSGJ 09:40, 16 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Not using all the 'extended' classes is certainly something I'm working on implementing. It's kind of hard due to the way the code is structured: the most obvious solution would introduce a terrifying number of expensive parser functions. It's on the todo list! <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 16:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Can WPBannerMeta categorise articles by priority rather than importance? If not, are there some good reasons why the latter is better than the former because I am trying to persuade WikiProject Mathematics to convert to the meta banner. MSGJ 09:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I've meant to write a hook for this for ages; perhaps someone wants to have a go? "Importance" is, like most of these semantics, the standard purely because it achieved the 'snowball' effect and became by far the most popular syntax in use, thereby perpetuating itself. The difference between "priority" and "importance" is, to my mind, utterly trivial; who honestly cares?? It's what the categories contain that's important, not what they're called. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 12:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I wrote the hook, just by copying the importancescale page and replacing instances of importance with priority. It's at Template:WikiProject Mathematics/priorityscale. But it might be better just to pass another parameter to the importancescale page though, the default of which would be importance. MSGJ 13:04, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Quick and easy! It should probably be a subpage of Template:WPBannerMeta/hooks, but it will need to be protected in that case.  I'll have a look at integrating the conversion more closely into the main code.  <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 13:08, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll write some code. Then you could check it and, if you think it's okay, make the edit? MSGJ 13:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Template:WPBannerMeta/importancescale could be replaced with the contents of User:Msgj/importancescale. The [[Template:WPBannerMeta] template would then have to pass the additional parameter

IMPORTANCE_NAME=
 * to the subtemplate. MSGJ 13:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've implemented this, with a few changes; lc: and ucfirst: are not parserfunctions, so don't need a leading # character, and since it's an internal template I used a shortened parameter name and put the defaults inline. I'm not going to pass the parameter from the main template; I don't think it's popular enough to warrant that extra code (and it would have to be passed in a several different places).  Rather, the hook can now become just the /importancescale call taken from the main banner with the extra parameter. Nice work though! <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 14:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't work out why the Template:WPBannerMeta/templatepage doesn't appear on Template:WikiProject Mathematics. Can anyone help, thanks. MSGJ 07:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It is to do with the "μ" in the code. Someone changed the symbol in a documentation edit which caused problems to banners being converted on those days. —Borgardetalk 08:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Although I really can't see what you did there. MSGJ 09:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This is happening often... I need to code up some kind of warning. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 17:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

missing Sortkey?
I think there is a sortkey missing from the template. I noticed that since the change to WPbannermeta the category Category:Top-importance physics articles is sorting almost all entries under T (for talk). This behavior is usually caused by not piping to the category links in templates. Having done some snooping, it does in fact seem that Template:WPBannerMeta/importancescale is not piping the magic word in the category declarations. This seems like a bug. (TimothyRias (talk) 15:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC))
 * , although I suspect that this conceals a deeper issue with the functioning of the listas parameter. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 23:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

NA-Class
Question: I understood that NA-Class is not used when the full quality scale is used. (Because all the non-articles have classes.) However the bannermeta is complaining that Category:NA-Class AFC articles doesn't exist on the Template:WPAFC page. MSGJ 10:11, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * NA-Class is available when the full quality scale is used; setting will always set it to NA-Class.  When the full quality scale is not used, NA-Class is a 'catchall' category for all the other complicated classes; think of it as there being a scale of FA/FL/A/GA/B/C/Start/Stub/List/?/NA, with the option to subdivide NA into Template/Category/Portal/Redirect/etcetcetc.  So NA-Class is always in use, so its category is always required. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 11:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't fully understand. If the full quality scale is used then there is no reason for any page to be classed as NA, is there? Indeed it is better if it not available because then people are more likely to classify it correctly. MSGJ 11:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Nonetheless some projects use it, so it has to be supported. I'm not saying it makes sense! I can see the logic behind saying that template examples genuinely are "not applicable", although with the category exemption it's easier just to classify it as FA-Class and stick no. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 14:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You could always create a page similar to Template:OH-Project/hide. (I don't think this one's documented anywhere though) §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  02:02, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Mysterious things may be in the works... watch this space (and poke me if it doesn't seem to be being filled :D )... <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 11:51, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Problem with image right
An example is at Talk:Biratnagar, with image_right on, the comments do not go the full length of the box, but stop at the start of the image on the right. I am using Firefox 3.0.4.. —Borgardetalk 03:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Current-class
Yesterday I adapted the WP UK Politics template to use WPBannerMeta and activated the option for the extended assessment scale. However, today I have found that articles previously identified as "class=Current" are now showing as "Unassessed" (see Talk:Opinion polling in the next United Kingdom general election for an example). I have tried to use both "class=Current" and "class=current" but to no affect.

Is this a bug with WPBannerMeta or am I doing something wrong? Road Wizard (talk) 10:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The current class is not recognised by the metabanner, and all unrecognised classes will be classed as unassessed. Apparently Happy-Melon is working on a solution that will enable project-specific classes. (Hopefully!) MSGJ 13:32, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That is strange as Future-class isn't a standard assessment class either but that works fine (see here). However if this isn't just a one off bug then I will probably revert to the previous code and await a more permanent fix. Road Wizard (talk) 13:39, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, for some reason future-class was implemented along with merge-class and needed-class. But not current class. I have implemented the current class categorisation using a Note, but it is not a tidy solution as it will categorise these articles as NA-Class and Current-Class. So, yes, you might like to revert until the next version is released :) MSGJ 13:45, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally I would suggest you separate current/future by using a different parameter, as it is not related to quality at all. Then you could have Current-State B-Class articles for example. MSGJ 13:49, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the interim fix, I will see how it works for a few days before I take any further action. However, Current and Future are related to quality assessments in the context that a current or future article is highly unstable and that it is much more likely for a standard quality rating to be incorrect at any given point. Also, it would be extremely unlikely for a current or future article to achieve a high quality rating, as by definition they do not provide a broad or complete overview of a subject until after the event has passed. Road Wizard (talk) 17:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Nested template
There seems to be a problem when Template:WPCountries, that uses this template, is nested within Template:WikiProjectBannerShell. The project banners placed after countries banner are not contained in the banner shell. See for an example Talk:Netherlands. – Ilse@ 12:49, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem appears to be related to the b-class checklist. Changing the class to something that doesn't activate the checklist causes the problem to disappear temporarily. Road Wizard (talk) 13:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That seems to be right. I have disabled the B class checklist temporarily and the banner is now displaying correctly. I wonder if this problem is occuring with every banner which uses the checklist? MSGJ 13:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I have checked WP UK Politics and exactly the same problem is occurring. It is definitely a bug with WPBannerMeta and not an individual project template. Road Wizard (talk) 13:33, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for looking into the matter. I hope the problem can be fixed. – Ilse@ 13:42, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well we'll just wait for the boss to come and fix it. I guess it's related to the edit of four days ago. MSGJ 13:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So revert it :D . It's not my template, I just happen to be the only one who understands it entirely, and that's only because I built it so didn't have to take the time to pick it apart. If you think you know why an error is occuring, please do go ahead and fix it.  You're really no more likely than I am to break something else in the process :D . That said, I'll have a look... <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 21:15, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well not all of us are able to edit protected pages ... I've been waiting 10 days for a protected edit on another page which still hasn't been done. Seriously though I don't think I would dare touch this template :) Martin 21:22, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Eh? I could have sworn you were an admin... :S Did you get ArbCommed when I wasn't looking? :D <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 22:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol, sounds painful. Martin 13:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 21:19, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well done! Martin 21:22, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Assessment Link
The template documentation says that "it is assumed that the assessment department of the WikiProject is located at PROJECTLINK/Assessment." It doesn't seem to be working this way for Template:WikiProject Reenactment, which is linking to Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Release Version Criteria. Am I misunderstanding this (entirely possible!), or is a setting messed up? Thanks, Cmadler (talk) 16:13, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's the "rated" or "received a rating" link which takes you to WikiProject Reenactment/Assessment. Martin 16:16, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, now that you mention it I do see that. Isn't it confusing/duplicative for a template to link to both? Cmadler (talk) 16:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I would agree that it seems unnecessary, especially if a WikiProject has used the Grading scheme template on their assessment page. Martin 17:00, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Error?
Talk:Edwin Taylor Pollock, has

to, say:

Thank you. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 14:32, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * If you want to add anything to the main banner text, just use the MAIN_TEXT parameter to set your own custom message, including whatever links you want. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 15:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you, but I don't simply want to make a custom edit to one (or a few) banners; I am proposing a global change to the template. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 19:26, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Why? The talk page is already linked under "the discussion" just one sentence later. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 20:11, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No it's not, I can see your point now. Unfortunately this is rather difficult to do reliably. I'll have a think. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 20:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Any joy, yet? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 12:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Nudge. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 12:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I really don't like this idea. I've seen many banners similar to OH-Project where the talk page is linked, just not directly after the project's name.  That would result in duplication and text space in banners already has to be kept pretty short.  §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  13:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Clearly, there would be a little mopping-up to do, but I think the net gain would be worth it - and your example shows that a need for talk page links has been identified. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 14:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I've added a link that appears when the discussion page is located at WikiProject ; I don't think it's worth the effort to support situations where that's not the case; they're just not common enough. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 16:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 21:53, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Request for help
So I think I understand how to use the peer review hook. But the project is now looking to be able to add notices about A-Class reviews, with discussions and categories similar to a PR. What do I need to do to be able to have peer-review and an A-Class review added to the template? Would I use NOTE_1 for the A-Class review? Thanks. §hep  •   ¡Talk to me!  02:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Have a look at . Let me know if anything doesn't make sense. And remind me to document that somewhere :D <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 08:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Would someone mind checking my addition to make sure I didn't screw anything up? Thanks!  §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  17:37, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks pretty good to me.
 * I noticed you removed the category= parameter in your next edit. I believe this is important for category opt-out reasons.
 * You had an extra carriage return in the hook which might have caused an unwanted line space. I removed this as well.
 * Obviously you'll need to create the categories, e.g..
 * I removed the subpaging into Name of nominated article. This seemed to be a mistake.
 * And some of the peer review parameters were wrong.
 * Martin 20:54, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the help. The only reason I removed category= was because it is already used at the top of the banner and appeared to me to be redundant/unneeded.  Thanks for fixing it, I guess I need to read more carefully.  §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  21:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it needs to be passed to the A-class hook as well. You're welcome. Martin 21:26, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Must have done something wrong? I tested passing the A-Class parameter and nothing happened. Any ideas, the code's still in the sandbox. §hep  •   ¡Talk to me!  22:59, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything wrong. It's working on my sandbox. Martin 00:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe I still had the old version cached somehow? After clearing everything out it's working, thanks for all your help again.  §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  01:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I promise my brain usually isn't this small. :D When I pass oldpr=yes it doesn't add the page into Peer reviewed Ohio articles. Ideas? Also, would it be possible to have the PR notice appears below the importance similar to the A-Class notice? §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  02:41, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm going to break this functionality into a hook, it's just too bespoke. Then you can put it wherever you like. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 11:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, any idea about the category not appearing? §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  11:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think this is an error in the template because it is not passing the correct parameter to the peerreview hook. Happy-melon, can you fix this? Martin 13:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * , I hope. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 14:53, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Woo! Everything appears to be working great!  Thanks.  §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  21:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Unassessed foo articles vs Unassessed-class foo articles
I'm converting the template for WikiProject Thailand to use WPBannerMeta, but WPBannerMeta categorizes pages without class designation into Category:Unassessed foo articles instead of Category:Unassessed-Class foo articles. I understand that the categories will update in time, but I wonder if this will confuse the WP 1.0 bot. Shouldn't there a way to keep the old categorizing scheme? --Paul_012 (talk) 16:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The 1.0 bot is fairly good at picking up on category renames such as this; it shouldn't give you any problems. Just make sure that the new category is in the same parent categories (particularly Category:Unassessed articles) as the old. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 22:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Redesign needs testing
I have spent most of this evening refining a complete redesign of the template's code flow, to reduce duplication of processor-intensive code snippets and make the design more streamlined and hence more robust. It should also make it possible/easier to complete some of the tasks on the todo list and requests outstanding on this page, most notably a more refined implementation of the extended quality scale. The changes are very substantial and involve modifications to every code subpage; consequently, I'm anxious to test the new design thoroughly before deploying it on all 600,000-some pages where the live banner appears. I would very much appreciate the assistance of anyone floating around this page who has some spare time ( :D ) to test the innumerable features to make sure they all still function as expected. is running the new code at the moment; there is a test banner at template:WPBannerMeta/test and some examples at Template:WPBannerMeta/testcases. Please feel free to edit either of those pages to test any new functions or construct your own tests, but note that the new code runs from unprotected templates, so should not be deployed on any live banners. Categories can be enabled by removing the category parameters in the examples at /testcases. Please post any bugs or comments here. Many thanks in advance, <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 00:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what parts are meant to be working for this test and what aren't, so forgive me if I provide a redundant comment:
 * COMMENTS=yes seems to be making a call to Template:WPBannerMeta/comments/sandbox, which doesn't exist right now.
 * FULL_QUALITY_SCALE=yes used to produce a warning about missing categories for the extended criteria, but this now appears to be missing.
 * Category space, Image space, Portal space, User space, Help space and Wikipedia space cause the importance field to automatically default to NA, but Template space defaults to unknown importance. Is this intentional? Road Wizard (talk) 00:40, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * All, I believe. Thanks, <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 17:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * My initial comments:
 * I have changed the link from the comments/sandbox.
 * It still is giving the warnings about missing categories, see Template:WPBannerMeta/test.
 * The width of the picture and assessment labels seems to have increased. Therefore the taskforce text does not line up properly. See the testcase on Template:WPBannerMeta/testcases. Martin 12:55, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * All, I believe. Thanks, <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 17:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay a more serious error. Look what happens if you use more than one taskforce. (Bottom of Template:WPBannerMeta/testcases.) Martin 13:00, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ouch! . Many thanks, keep up the good work! <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 17:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you know you have two hook_notes on your video games test template? Martin 13:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wasn't me, guv', I just used whatever happened to be there at the time :D . Fixed it, although it doesn't really matter. Thanks for noticing tho. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 14:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Request: could you do a mask for Template:WPBannerMeta/importancescale as you have done with Template:WPBannerMeta/qualityscale and Template:WPBannerMeta/qualityscale/class? I think it would help in some ways. Martin 19:16, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually the mask for the new code is at Template:WPBannerMeta/class, merging /bcheck and /qualityscale/class. I haven't made a mask for importance before now because there isn't very much normalising to perform, just case-insensitivity AFAIK.  Can you think of other values that need to be handled? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 19:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a bit more complicated than that because it depends on the class as well, doesn't it? It's used more than once on the importancescale page and also it would help when adapting complex project templates. For example, some projects use categories such as X-Class Y-importance Foo articles and these are quite hard to code currently. Martin 23:00, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This is ✅, but I'm not sure how you expect this to make it easier to do category intersections. Note that they will be deprecated by the second generation 1.0 bot anyway. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 15:45, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

NA importance error?
I think that there might be an error somewhere. Talk pages that used to be tagged with D&D and a class like "redirect" or "category" had "importance" automatically set to NA without having it typed in. Just today or yesterday, the automatic NA-assesment seems to have disappeared and all of those articles are now Unknown-importance. There haven't been any real edits recently to D&D, so I was wondering if one of the recent changes to this one did something. Thanks! -Drilnoth (talk) 02:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you provide a link to a page that is displaying incorrectly? The first one I looked at (Category talk:Dungeons & Dragons planes of existence) seemed to be working okay. Martin 10:02, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * File talk:CN2 Conan the Mercenary.jpg is one. I know that it used to have NA-importance automatically because I created a lot of the file talk pages to assess them. The same thing seems to be the case on cats, project pages, templates, redirects, etc. An example of a redirect is Talk:Ellifain. The category that you mentioned has "Importance=cat" in it, which I guess translates to "Importance=NA", although before "Quality=cat" would automatically set "Importance=NA." -Drilnoth (talk) 14:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually Category talk:Dungeons & Dragons planes of existence works without any parameter. Which suggests it's working for categories but not for redirects or images. Hmmm. Martin 14:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, here's a partial answer. The images don't work because of the recent change in the name of that namespace (Image -> File). The banner needs to be updated for this. The redirect and disambiguation ones don't work because of the recent overhaul of the banner. It seems that namespace detection is used now, but of course these two are in mainspace so this doesn't work with them. Happy-melon, can you fix it? :) Martin 14:37, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Huh. Indeed; I'd just assumed that all of the ones that used to set it automatically had stopped. It looks like redirects, files, and disambiguation pages are the only ones affected. My bad. -Drilnoth (talk) 14:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "file" - well spotted Martin! Looks like you get your wish for the importance mask as well - this is too complicated to do inline. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 14:56, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Great! So the images are fixed, but it still doesn't look like the redirects and disambig pages are fixed. -Drilnoth (talk) 15:27, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, we now have an importance mask at. No support for custom masks until there's evidence that it's actually desired. Does this fix the issues? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 15:41, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks like it, although I think that all of the pages need a purge for it to show up right (presumably that'll fix itself over time, though). Thanks for all your help! -Drilnoth (talk) 15:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't List-class also default to NA-importance? Martin 20:32, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't personally think so; lists are content, sometimes just as important as articles. I can imagine list of tulips would be important to WikiProject Tulips. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 20:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, you have a good point. But has this changed or has it always been the case? Martin 21:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think that lists ever set to NA-importance on their own. -Drilnoth (talk) 21:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be another problem. was recently added to two articles, and the template now shows up as being NA-importance and NA-class, not NA-importance and Redirect-class. -Drilnoth (talk) 23:38, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * These seem to be working fine now. And I don't think anything was fixed or changed in the meantime, so not sure what happened there. Martin 11:01, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Another problem at Template_talk:Australian-baseball-stadiums, the task force is going into a category of "-importance" with no NA in the front. —Borgardetalk 00:58, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is definitely an error. It seems the taskforces are not using the new importance mask. Martin 11:01, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * . Now I'm definitely not implementing custom importance masks. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 14:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that fix, but just to let you know, there is still a problem when there has been no importance assigned, for example, at Talk:Alfonso_Soriano, it displays as the same problem. —Borgarde 02:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * These ones are using the taskforce hook to display extra taskforces so I guess it's because the hook has not yet been updated. Martin 07:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * , although that makes the /hooks/taskforces hook horribly inefficient... oh well, what can you do? :D <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 14:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

FQS

 * 1) Can someone replace the two instances of "FULL_QUALITY_SCALE" on Template:WPBannerMeta/core with "FQS" to fix an error.
 * 2) Why isn't FQS passed to the qualityscale subtemplate? I think that, if FQS is not enabled, classifying a page as, for example, Image-class, should result in NA-class. This is not happening anymore. Martin 21:03, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * FQS is no longer passed into /core, so that won't fix the issue. The whole /templatepage code needs to be rewritten.  The output of /qualityscale is now entirely controlled by what is given to it by /class, so any errors will come from there.  Can you show me an example of the second error, please? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 21:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I saw FQS on the main template but see now that it is not passed. I haven't worked out this core yet. Just as I was working out how everything worked, you changed it all :)
 * Sorry again, seems I am mistaken.
 * I'll have a go at the templatepage coding. But FQS will need passing to the core, won't it? Martin 21:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Since it needs to take account of custom masks if they exist, I was thinking of caling /class each time to see which inputs are accepted. But then again, it will still need FQS to do that correctly... I can pass it through if you think it would help you... <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 14:01, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think if someone is clever enough to set up a custom mask then they should be able to create the categories without prompting :) So I suggest we just use the standard ones. However I would like to set up prompting for ATTENTION_CAT, INFOBOX_CAT, NOTE_1_CAT, etc. Would it make more sense to call templatepage from the main template rather than the core? Martin 14:11, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't really make much difference, since all those parameters have to be passed through anyway. In fact if you want to check for the other categories you'd be better off taking the parameters out of /core once they've already been normalised. But I agree with you on the custom mask thing. So we don't need to check /class every time, just one check for the existance of a custom mask (in which case abort).  What parameters do you want passed to /templatepage? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 14:16, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll need to think about this (and work out what on earth you've done with this template :P) but for now I'd say quality scale, full quality scale, assessment cat (defaulting to project+articles), plus all other category parameters. Martin 14:32, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The short answer to "what on earth have I done with this template?" is that I moved the code that was in the main template to /core, and replaced the main template with a transparency, just passing every parameter through unchanged. Then I went through all the subtemplates looking for where tests were done repeatedly on the same value, and instead of doing them repeatedly I moved the code such that it's only done once, when the parameter is passed through to /core.  For instance, the link to the project page, PROJECT_LINK, was regularly tested; if it wasn't defined, it defaulted to "Wikipedia:WikiProject ".  So I moved that code to only do that once. Thus I got to remove a lot of duplication.  <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 17:25, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Comments
On Talk:Pink Floyd, look at the Pink Floyd banner and check the comments. A table of contents for the whole talk page (not the comment page) is appearing in there. Has something gone wrong? Martin 10:36, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It was due to a header in the comments sub page. —Borgarde 12:59, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Custom quality scales now available
After implementing and reverting the new banner code three times this afternoon I finally found the two-character error that was single-handedly demolishing the 1.0 assessment scheme and breaking half a million pages ( :D ), so the new code is now live. The most exciting development as a result is the ability to define custom quality scales for individual banners. Check out Template:WPBannerMeta/class for an explanation, and if anyone fancies rewriting or extending that documentation, do feel free, it's not one of my better docs! An important todo from this is to rewrite the code that displays the "you need to create categories X Y and Z" boxes on the template pages so they only ask to create categories that are actually being used, if anyone wants to try their hand at that I'd be most grateful. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 21:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC) On a related note, I intend to remove "Future", "Merge", "Needed" and "Project" from the standard full quality scale, so any banners which use them will need to define their own scales. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 21:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, in response to Happy-melon, I think that Project should be kept in the template on its own; I think that it's pretty useful (although please correct me if there's consensus somewhere else regarding this that I just don't know about). -Drilnoth (talk) 02:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Do we have any stats about how many projects are using Project-Class? It could be a lot of (unnecessary) work to convert banners if it is unsupported by default. Martin 10:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 85. -Drilnoth (talk) 14:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Quite a few. What are the advantages of removing default support for this class? Martin 14:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Remember that most of these do not use WPBannerMeta. A list of all pages transcluding WPBannerMeta banners set to those four quality types is at Category:WPBannerMeta templates using obscure class values. I'm not sure how best to intersect those two lists to work out exactly how many WPBannerMeta banners are affected. It's certainly not that many. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 14:49, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but even if there aren't many pages using it, what would be the point of removing the support for the classes? It's not like there's severly limited space, and it would just create more unnecessary work for the projects which do use them. -Drilnoth (talk) 15:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Because for the vast majority of projects that don't use them, it's cluttering up their assessment categories and they're getting nasty warnings instructing them to create the categories anyway. Effectively the banner is forcing everyone to support them whether they like it or not, which is not very nice :D <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 15:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Gotcha. So how hard will it be then to create the category separetely for each project that wants it? I'm still not able to figure out the template coding for some of these more complicated ones. -Drilnoth (talk) 15:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It can be expected that more and more projects will convert their banners, so although there might not be many now it may well increase. I would still argue that the Project-class should be kept because it's one related to a specific namespace and so is one which will classify by default (namespace detection). Martin 20:37, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a good point, it's true; it does set "Project" apart from the others. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 20:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I have now removed Future, Merge and Needed from the default quality scale; these should be stripped from documentation, etc. Project-Class remains, and I'm convinced to leave it. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 19:14, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Image right size
|IMAGE_ RIGHT _SIZE   = Is this ([ diff]) really what we want? —Ms2ger (talk) 21:08, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, it doesn't match the docs. --WOSlinker (talk) 22:55, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

You are right. Left should be right! Martin 00:23, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * ROFL!! I don't want to know what I was thinking when I wrote that (copy and paste, I hope!).   <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 15:51, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. —Ms2ger (talk) 18:34, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

COLLAPSED does not work properly
We would like to replace this template with WPBannerMeta but there is a problem with the COLLAPSED section. It will show the section at the bottom of the template by clicking the "show" link, but when you click the "hide" link, the section disappears correctly but the box is not resized. I tested it out using XP Pro, IE 7, and MonoBook (default). Thanks in advance. –p joe f (talk • contribs) 10:13, 13 December 2008 (UTC) Also, we have another problem with the category NA-Class projectname articles. We are using the category Non-article The Clash pages as many other wikiprojects are doing... but this is another question and I think it is better to solve problems one at a time (^_^)! Once again, thanks!!! –p joe f (talk • contribs) 15:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you give me a link to a page where this behaviour is happening and I will try it with my browser. It seems possible that the table in the to-do list is conflicting with the banner. On Template:WPClash/sandbox I have made a version which is displaying perfectly on my computer. Martin 13:39, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No Martin! I tried it out using my scratch page instead of the to-do list. At first, I blanked that page and then I added few lines of simple text (without wikilink, wikisyntax, HTML... just simple text) but the problem was still there. Well, I've just checked out the Template:WPClash/sandbox, and the problem is always the same. I think that no one used that field or that it is a problem with my browser. The actual version of WPClash works fine with the to-do list. Anyway, thank you so very much for your prompt help. I really appreciate it.
 * I'm sorry, I still can't understand what the problem is. I've looked at Template:WPClash/sandbox on Firefox 3 and Internet Explorer 7 and nothing looks wrong to me. Maybe it is a problem with your browser.
 * You would need to use "NA" rather than "Non-article" if you converted the banner. It wouldn't be a problem. The articles will recategorise themselves eventually and then you can redirect the category. Martin 09:20, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, I had the time to take a look at the output generated by the template, and I've found the cause of the problem. There is a conflict in the CSS in-line declaration for the first TABLE element (line 1). If I remove the wpb value from the class attribute of the TABLE element, the template functions correctly. Also, I've found other errors looking at the output generated by the template: 01. 42. 43. 44. 45. 46. 47.  I hope these will be useful to you. –p joe f (talk • contribs) 11:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) lines 11+12+13 →  three TD ; line 16 →  one TD ; lines 19+20, AND 23+24 →  two TD ;  line 27 →  one TD with colspan="3" . You need some colspan!
 * 2) line 23 → Where is the value for the class attribute??? It's the line related to the importance scale and it's empty.
 * 3) Also, I prefer that a CSS declaration consists of a property, followed by a colon, followed by a white space, followed by a value, followed by a semicolon . The last declaration does not need the semicolon . (f.e.:  )


 * Thanks for that analysis. Unfortunately I think that most of these errors are caused by tidy.php trying to clean things up and thereby making more of a mess. I'll certainly take another look at it tho. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 17:01, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Editlinks
Just one question: why? —Ms2ger (talk) 18:34, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Something I've always wanted, and I only just got round to implementing. I'm not sure where's best to put them, tho; I thought about above the left image or in the bottom-right corner as well.  Thoughts? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 18:50, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I like it. An 'r' link (for refresh) would a good idea as well.  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 18:56, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's just inlining, which is itself just a ripoff of , so you should probably take that idea over there. I do think it's a good idea, tho. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 19:01, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Should it be v. d. e rather than v. e. h though? -- WOSlinker (talk) 19:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It should, but unfortunately that's not possible; there's (currently) no way to construct the talk page that goes with a non-mainspace subject page. Which is very silly, really. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 19:19, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I would take out history then. It just confuses the issue, leading anyone who sees it to think that it was intended to be v . e . h. Surely you can put in a non-working d (not a link, just the letter), until someone figures out how to code it so it does work. 199.125.109.64 (talk) 00:03, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I like where it puts the links on OH-Project. It looks crammed.  Maybe the extreme top-right?  Or have the ability to turn the links off?  §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  00:35, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * TBH they should off (well at least all except for V) unless otherwise turned on because 1) WP banners should hardly ever be edited and 2) Most people wouldn't even care about them and just get confused. Peachey88 (Talk Page 02:15, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Though it appears to only go lower than normal when a portal box is used. Would it be possible to make it go above the portal box atleast? §hep  •   ¡Talk to me!  19:57, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi there, I don't want to be rude or something, but I don't like it, is there some way it can it be avoided? Why should you be able to edit such a template, if you wish to you can always copy the template name. Anyhow, my suggestion is making it optional, however, this may cause edit wars but we'll see about that. Cheers. -- Music 26/  11  12:14, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, it seems that there is mixed reaction to this. What I've done is to keep the vde links in, but make them hidden by default. If you want to make them visible, add the following line to your monobook.css: I hope that should satisfy everyone. Merry Christmas! <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 11:57, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  21:07, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Something Wrong?
I just updated to use WPBannerMeta and it doesn't seem to be adding the categories to the talk pages (Example), what did i do wrong? Peachey88 (Talk Page 02:49, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, you had the wrong μ in the category (see my edit to fix it) -- WOSlinker (talk) 08:04, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 0.o i didn't changed anything *looks confused* that was the example from the Template:WPBannerMeta main page. Peachey88 (Talk Page 09:29, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Some browsers mangle the mu character into its unicode equivalent. I keep meaning to write a check for that. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 12:06, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

How about something like |category          = instead of |category          = so that it doesn't matter which μ is used. -- WOSlinker (talk) 16:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Or do  wherever we currently use   at the moment, which would be nicer.  Incidentally I think both the µ characters in both our examples are the same :D . <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 17:11, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Upon looking into it, I suspect that the problems here come from the fact that Unicode incorporates two characters here that look absolutley identical: the "lowercase letter mu" μ and the "micro prefix" µ. WPBM uses the mu character which is a start, but it seems to me that we I have dug us into a bit of a hole here by using a character that's open to such easy confusion. I'm inclined to pull the plug on the whole thing and change everything to use an obscure letter that actually appears on the keyboard somewhere to also make it easier to use. Any suggestions for characters to use? I'm leaning towards the "tilde" ~ or the mysterious "not sign" ¬, which also has the advantage of making some semantic sense. Thoughts? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 18:04, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I might suggest to not use ~ due to its other uses. But ¬ seems a good option. I must admit I am still baffled by the role that this plays in the template. Martin 15:26, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I am assuming that ¬ will not have the same problems as μ?? Martin 12:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I bloody well hope not! :D <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 14:56, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Importance vs Priority
Most projects that classify their articles also use an importance scale (High/Mid/Low) but there are seven projects that have called it a priority scale rather than importance.


 * WikiProject Video games
 * WikiProject Square Enix
 * WikiProject Final Fantasy
 * WikiProject Sicily
 * WikiProject Spooks
 * WikiProject Kingdom of Naples
 * WikiProject Sheffield

So, the question is, should these projects be migrated over to use the importance scale or should the WPBannerMeta template be modified to have an option to use a priority scale instead? -- WOSlinker (talk) 20:44, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You forgot the biggest, WPBiography. Note that there is a hook, /priorityscale IIRC, that allows this. I think each project should be asked, explicitly, whether they think the perceived advantages of the semantic distinction outweigh the costs associated with being so radically different to the rest of the wiki community. If they think so, then we should give them the hook (in the nicest possible way :D ). <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 21:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I was actually looking in the wrong place, there are a few more than seven projects. Anyway, do you have an example of how to use the hook? I had a look in /importancescale and there's a parameter called IMPN but it doesn't seem to be passed through from /core -- WOSlinker (talk) 23:34, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No it's not. The only way to do it is to call importancescale using HOOK_IMPORTANCE. Check out Template:WikiProject Mathematics for an example. Martin 00:20, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

At the moment we don't have any way of handling taskforces/workgroups which use the term priority. I would like to request that the IMPN parameter is optionally accepted by /taskforce so that this can be achieved. Martin 08:31, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 12:18, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Custom mask and hooks
Template:WPBannerMeta/hooks/taskforces doesn't seem to be compatible with a custom mask? Could this be incorporated? Martin 16:57, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It should be. Example? <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 16:58, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, my mistake again it seems. What I am really trying to do is to get hook_collapsed to work without using any collapsed_text or collapsed notes. Is this possible? Martin 23:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I see, although I don't entirely follow your thought processes from one to the other :D . That's definitely a bug, now hopefully <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 11:15, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No I don't think they were related really :) Next thing: I think there is a vertical line missing after . Thanks, Martin 11:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There certainly is, well spotted. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 13:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I still think there is something wrong with the taskforce hook. FQS and B_CHECKLIST are not passed to /class. For TF_2-6, FQS is passed (possibly unnecessarily) to /taskforce, but not for TF_1. Martin 21:01, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ?? Get someone to revert if things break; I have to go to bed :D <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 23:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think it is fixed thanks. Next thing. When using custom quality classes (e.g. Bplus), the banner says it is not an article and does not require a rating. This is wrong in this case (e.g. Talk:Fourier series). Can something be done about it? Martin 14:56, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it unlikely that a particular class would be regarded as an article by one project and not by another. Therefore I propose a yes/no switch on a separate page which tells /qualityscale whether it's an article or not. Martin 15:23, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Happy? Martin 15:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to think of a nice way to have it drop out of /class without having to create two separate masks... <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 15:45, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, that would be better. But the only way I can think of is to put one in capitals and the other in lowercase. But I'm sure you'll think of something better! Martin 00:58, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I've got it. For each custom class in the mask which is an article, add another option in the switch with article appended and outputing "yes". So for example you might have

There would still be the default article mask for the usual classes. Then you can check if it's an article by calling /mask|class=article I think that might work! Martin 11:50, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've been thinking more. I think most cases could be handled by the default quite easily. For example, I think all pages in main space should be called articles by default, except for the obvious few (redirect, dab, list, etc.) Martin 15:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree; the "this page/article has been rated..." message works reasonably well for all messages, while the "this page is not an article" message is quite obviously wrong in some cases. I've reversed the default so that all nonstandard classes get the "has been rated" message; I think this resolves the worst of the issue.  Implementing another custom mask is just too complicated for such a tiny gain. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 18:59, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not working - see bug below! Martin 19:17, 1 January 2009 (UTC) All working great now I think! Martin 16:13, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Category optout transition
This is currently in progress, changing µ to ¬ everywhere. This is probably going to be a bit messy, particularly if I miss any banners. I'm trying to be thorough, but do please ring a bell if MelonBot misses updating any banners and you consequently lose all your categories... and apologies in advance if that happens. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 12:43, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, this should now be complete, so if any banners still contain the code  that is an error.  Please replace the the mu character with a 'not sign' ¬, which is on the very top-left of most keyboards (UK ones at least, not sure about other styles), usually with the shift key; or post here if eg the page is protected or it's more complicated than a simple replace.  Hopefully this new character won't have the same problems as we've been having with μ. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 14:59, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Any help to keep Category:WPBannerMeta templates with old category optout code clean would also be appreciated. The category picks up any instances of banners that haven't had their default updated; you can easily see which one by checking which set of project categories is missing.  Then just click through the vde link and update the default.  Many thanks in advance for any assistance you can give. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 15:02, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Emptied. (For now) §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  23:53, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Cleared again. It seems to be mainly templates with an incorrect BANNER_NAME parameter, and banners which have been substituted instead of transcluded. Martin 16:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Display error


Oops... Fvasconcellos (t·c) 19:10, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * On which page did you see this? Martin 19:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I see, it's from Template:WPBannerMeta/doc. This must be due to H-M's recent edit. Martin 19:16, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I came to report this too. It was fine yesterday. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  19:21, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This seems to be happening on a great number of pages...Template:WikiProject_Tennis -- Mjquin_id (talk) 19:38, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, we're just waiting for Happy-Melon to revert his recent edit to Template:WPBannerMeta/qualityscale. If he's not online shortly I'll put an editprotected on it. Martin 19:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Editprotected request placed. Martin 20:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've reverted it myself—I hope he won't mind. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 20:12, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. As I've said before somewhere else; don't hesitate to revert me if I screw up, it happens often enough. You usually can't make the problem any worse, even if it's impossible to go back to the previous behavior because they're a series of connected changes. Just go to my contribs and start clicking 'undo' until it looks ok :D <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 20:24, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

category=no
On Template:WikiProject Veronica Mars, the documentation includes an example of the template using the category=no parameter. However the information message still appears below the banner. I suggest that this should be supressed. Martin 19:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Martin 22:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice! <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 22:15, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually it's not nice! It's not passing the parameters through and so it's showing the same example each time. As it is quite reasonable to put examples in the documentation, I think we should support this. Two options:
 * Update /templatepage to pass through each parameter if it is defined.
 * Update the root template to pass to /core if category is defined.
 * I think I prefer the second option. Thoughts? Martin 08:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed not nice! I have done option 2 (good thinking!), which is now, I hope, nice... :D <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 11:14, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Great! Surprised this hasn't come up before ... Martin 16:14, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Nice style
I came across Template:WikiProject Korea which, in my opinion, has a really nice layout on its banner. The quality and importance scales are smaller and alongside the picture, which makes the banner a lot more compact. What do people think about it? Is there any way that this style could be used on BannerMeta? Martin 22:39, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't scale well to banners with huge numbers of notes and taskforces, which are quite common. Would also be frighteningly complicated to calculate that rowspan (make that impossible to calculate for banners using hooks). Looks nice there, I agree, but would be very difficult to implement here. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 22:47, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I was only suggesting that the quality and importance could be alongside the picture. Notes and taskforces would be unaffected. Martin 23:01, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. There's still a hook in there that could (would) screw things up, although it's not very widely used. When looking at a page that actually has the assessments filled in (eg Talk:Sun Myung Moon) I think it looks a bit wierd, actually.  It would look even more bizzarre if there were then notes coming down from the image in the normal way.  <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 11:26, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, yes, I think I agree with you. It does look quite odd. Probably be okay if the image was on the right. But not going to work here. Martin 16:14, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The banner right now is generally the accepted "norm" as far as sizes, colors, text placement go; a lot of people are frustrated with this template in the fist place, making everything look different from what's been normal seems to be a bad idea. §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  21:22, 2 January 2009 (UTC)