Portal:Ukraine/Ukraine-related Wikipedia notice board/Archive 2

Peer review/Kiev/archive1
I requested Peer review for Kiev. Sashazlv 05:09, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Bringing publicity to Ukrainian topics
I think we should change the priorities. The problem is that there are too few people who contribute to "Ukrainian articles" on a more or less systematic basis. And few people seem to be interested in such articles, in general. We kind of keep creating stubs and seldom update or expand them. Those, who, by chance, get to such a stub will be frustrated and may never come back to any "Ukrainian article". First impression does matter a lot.

Here's a possible solution: 1. Switch effort from quantity to quality. 2. Try a few PR techniques. A good idea may be to try to push Kiev to an FA status.

This whole thing is a voluntary project. So, the only way to make people work is to make them interested. I hope quality + some PR would work out.

What do you think? Sashazlv 04:41, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree that UA articles as featured at front page will bring publicity and may bring people to topics. Just for the particality reasons, we have to choose not among the most worthy topics, but among the better shaped article. I am not sure, Kiev is the one, but it is one from a rather small pool.


 * I think also a good idea is to attract more attention from our neighbors. Just look at the coverage of RU- and PL-related topics (I humbly try to participate, with at Russia portal and (very little) at Wikipedia talk:Polish Wikipedians' notice board). There are editors there with an exceptional commitment and quality of contributions. I will keep campaigning there for more attention to UA topics and will try some new approaches. :) --Irpen 07:54, August 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * I absolutely agree, I try my best to give prominence and to make sure that every article is appropriate and correct, but I am only one man. However I am not very keen on how things work beyond the article creation, editing, and linking, I would appreciate help. I also think that our focus should concentrate on the English language pages, regardless of how passionate we are about Ukrainian language, the reality of the situation is that English is the core language, in which most of the information is derived from Ivan2007 (talk) 11:17, October 18, 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to say something here in response to a very understandable remark by Sasha at Talk:Judicial system of Ukraine "Anyway, my long-term impression is that nobody would be interested. So, don't waste your time."

As for using our time most efficiently, I agree with Sasha that the best thing would be to bring more interest to Ukrainian topics by generating 2-3 more Featured Articles. I think Kiev, History of Kiev, Orange Revolution could be developed to WP:FA status. Until recently, the History of Ukrainian language could be spun off from the Ukrainian language article and developed to FA within a reasonable effort. Right now, much of material was deleted from there by AndriyK and it needs to be restored first but it is doable. Actually, I promise to do it myself once this crazy arbitratrion is over. Another exciting topic with a reasonable amount of material already in is History of Christianity in Ukraine that used to be my pet article before I realized I cannot possibly write it on my own. Could we set aside some time this winter, guys? I am sure we could find others to help us! --Irpen 03:40, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Can you compile a full list of such potential articles? If you/we decide to expand something into an FA, its better to pick an article that is not too contentious. Otherwise, there's a risk it may fall short of formal FA criteria (e.g., an article under an on-going edit war). For that reason, I see problems with Orange Revolution and History of Christianity. Also, you/we should pick exactly one article, so as not to split scarce effort. Sashazlv 05:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with Sasha regarding the contentiousness. History of Christianity... is definitely a bad choice. I would say Kiev, if it wasn't actually Kyiv :)). I mean it is a predominantly geography/economics-related article. Some other interesting city/town? May it could be Fastiv, for example? Another approach is a politics-(relatively)-free page. A technical one? (Antonov seems to be a high-tech symbol of Ukraine... Irpen, do all articles listed by me fit the FA criteria of importance, size, topic/subject etc.? Ukrained 19:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I've done it a while ago at the Portal's front page. Check the "Things you can do" window. I created a category: "Articles with Featured Article Candidate's status within reach". We all, myself included, should check the portlal more often. Not just its notice boards :). I picked articles based on their relative saturation with factual info. Any Ukrainian topic is contentious. Perhaps, Ukrainian Baroque then? But I am afraid, there are not enough art specialists between us. "History of UA L", would make a great article and a unique too, as Michael pointed out earlier, since most other language history articles provide history of linguistic development, while ours provides the reflection of political history of the nation on the language. But it is contentous of course. Well, even History of Kiev is contentious for some zealots and there are some and there will be more. In any case, please add articles to the Portal's window of potential WP:FAC. --Irpen 05:32, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * BTW, we shouldn't be too pessimistic because WP is developing as a whole regardless Ukrainian pages, - but possibly increasing demand for the. E.g., in Ukraine, the influential and growing [Glavred www.glavred.info] informs on WP inner developments systematically, and [Korrespondent www.korrespondent.net] is occasionally citing the WP pages in their news. Ukrained 19:27, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The following moved from Talk:Judicial system of Ukraine:


 * I would say making Kiev a featured article. It's less likely to fall prey to political disagreements -- if history section is kept short. I submitted it for peer review about half a year ago, but it died out at that point. Please, cross-post this on portal talk and add your comments. Sashazlv 23:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Exactly, history sections in both Kiev and Ukraine (and few other big articles) should be kept short. They became freaking impossible to edit and preview! If we only could reach an agreement... And let's keep developing/"mainarticling" other sections of Kiev. Ukrained 12:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Starobielsk
The article needs urgent attention. Is it really a village? Is it near Kharkov? What about the spelling? --Ghirlandajo
 * I did a quick search and found out some amazingly interesting info about this place. I will start working on it and will post the refs at talk page. Thanks, Ghirlandajo, for bringing this up. --Irpen 22:31, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * Please see Talk:Starobielsk. --Irpen 03:34, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Attorney General / Prosecutor General
I couldn't find an article about the Office of the General Prosecutor of Ukraine (Генеральна прокуратура України), or whatever translation you prefer. If it exists under a different name, please, post it below. Sashazlv 04:17, 29 July 2005 (UTC) Lest I forget, external link is:.

Template for links to Zerkalo Nedeli articles
I think it would be useful to make a template for the references to ZN articles. The paper covers a broad array of topics, from current events and remote history. It is bi-/tri- lingual and searchable back to 1995. Something like:

to bring:
 * "Article name" in Zerkalo Nedeli (the Mirror Weekly), Month, Year, available online in [linkru Russian] and [linkua Ukrainian].

Is there anyone with experience making templates? I made several but messed up big time. Just a suggestion. --Irpen 06:56, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * Done Template:Zerkalo Nedeli. —dima/s-ko/ 00:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

New PD-tag as per the UA law below
As per the law below, I just created a tag which displays the following message:

I also placed a copy of this tag to commons and started to tag images both there and in enwiki. You are welcome! :) --Irpen 04:41, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * I was about to do the same, but you beat me to it. One, I tagged all of the Hero of Ukraine images with that tag. Two, check your email inbox and three, if someone can help with some photos of people wearing the title, we can use one or two. Most of the images from Kuchma's era were deleted from his website, replaced with photos of Yushchenko. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Ukrainian copyright law's very important excemption
Prompted by Zscout370's request at my talk page I checked for what UA law says on this issue. UA-version of the law is easy to google, but an English version is harder to find and I think the links below are very useful. Anyway, there are a couple of sites that give full text of the 2001 law on copyright in English. The most "official looking" is this pdf file at CIPR's site. The HTML version is available at this fun site but the text is the same. The relevant text from the law is in the PD-UA-exempt tag above, now created both in enwiki and in commons.

Here is the excerpt from the law:

Objects Not Covered by Protection
 * 10. The following items shall not be objects of copyright:
 * (a) daily news or details of current events that constitute regular press information;
 * (b) works of folk art (folklore);
 * (c) official documents of a political, legislative or administrative nature (laws, decrees, resolutions, court awards, State standards, etc.) issued by government authorities within their powers, and official translations thereof;
 * (d) State symbols of Ukraine, government awards (in original text "nagorody", so yes, it includes orders and medals! -Irpen); symbols and signs of government authorities, the Armed Forces of Ukraine and other military formations (should include all insignia, right? -Irpen); symbols of territorial communities (original "terrytorial'nyh gromad", so not only State but local CoA's, I assume. -Irpen); symbols and signs of enterprises, institutions and organizations (I would say it includes logos, including Dinamo Kiev :) -Irpen);
 * (e) bank notes;
 * (f) transport schedules, TV and radio broadcast schedules, telephone directories and other similar databases that do not meet the originality criteria and to which the sui generis right (a particular or special right) is applicable.

The drafts of the official symbols and signs specified in points (d) and (e) of part 1 of this Article shall, prior to their official approval, be regarded as works and shall be protected pursuant to this Law.

This should make life easier, shouldn't it? Cheers, -Irpen 00:52, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Besides, similar tag is created based on the similar RU-law. It is both in commons and enwiki. The tag has a reference to the official text of the Russian Law I pasted to Wikisource. Unfortunately, I was not able to paste an UA-law in English to Wikisource. For one, the RU-law text (English version) is published on RU-gov site (there is not in gov-ua), and the links I found are correct but not official. Secondly, the version of ru-law could be pasted as is, without adding wikimarkup, to produce still reasonable text. If anyone wants to take it upon themselves, you're all welcome.

And finally, there are other permitted uses in both RU- and UA-laws. Such as "reproduction of pieces that are open to public access anyway", etc. Do we need another tag for such? Or common PD and fairuse tags would suffice? Regards, --Irpen 17:53, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * We already have a template for photos taken at or before 1973, called PD-USSR. From 1974-1991, I am not sure about the copyright for those photos. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 20:16, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Quite interesting, actually, because I just uploaded a photo that was taken in the 80s. I marked it as PD but not sure if it's the best choice. -- mno 20:23, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Rus' articles' confusion
Please look at the note I just posted at Wikipedia talk:Russian Wikipedians' notice board and respond there, if you would like to share your opinion on this. Thanks! -Irpen 00:41, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

Woah! (Hero of Ukraine)
I've been away for a week, and missed my user page when catching up, yesterday. By dumb luck, I just found the medal you awarded me. What a great surprise. Thanks so much! —Michael Z. 2005-07-27 19:34 Z 
 * :). BTW, Zscout370, who recently created a Hero of Ukraine and the List of heroes of Ukraine articles (both being developed now, mostly by him) is aware of this. I don't know whether he will add this recipient to the list article. ;) --Irpen 20:31, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Eastern-European cooperation proposal
Crossposted to: Wikipedia talk:Polish Wikipedians' notice board, Wikiportal/Russia/Russia-related Wikipedia notice board, Wikipedia talk:Wikiportal/Belarus, Wikiportal/Ukraine/Ukraine-related Wikipedia notice board

I'd like to propose that Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian (and anybody else who wants to join, you will excuse me if I won't list everyone here, I tried to reach everybody on the Regional notice boards) Wikipedians join forces and try together to promote some articles to FA, instead of (what seems to be more common, unfortunately) fighting over which name should go first and similar petty issues :>

In this spirit I invite you all to comment on Polish-Muscovy War (1605-1618), an article I (mostly, wiki being wiki) have written over the past few months. It can definitely benefit from introducing Russian/English spelling of some names/people that I added knowing only Polish spelling, adjusting my Polish POV and adding more info from Russian/other sources I have no access to. I believe this article is fairly comprehensive, and we can make it reach FA. In few days I will submit it to Peer Review, and if there are no disputes on PR/article's talk page I will submit it to FA in over a week.

Once again, I invite your comments and edits, and hope this will be the first of many similar projects that proves we can work on together, to show our Eastern European history and culture to English-speaking world, most of whom unfortunately seem never to heard about Muscovy of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. If you like this initative. For now, I invite everybody to copy their replies to my talk page; if there is enough interest, perhaps we can create a serparate page to discuss it (Wikiproject:Eastern Europe or sth like this). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:35, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The idea is now located at User:Zscout370/Wikiproject:Eastern Europe. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 23:44, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Cuisine
On this vein, can someone explain why we don't have a consistant policy for articles on the related cuisines of East European peoples? Why is it that pyrohy are covered by one article that includes all national varieties, but kovbasa is broken into different articles for Polish and Ukrainian types, and the same with pysanka? Should we try to have a standard or this type of thing or work on a case by case basis? Kevlar67 19:29, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Excellent questions. Maybe we should start a mini-project to discuss this at Category talk:Slavic cuisine or Talk:Eastern European cuisine. I'm adding these to my watchlist. —Michael Z. 2006-02-04 22:16 Z 


 * There is alreay a stub type page at Eastern European cuisine but there is very little there right now, and no discussion of the issue I'm talking about. Kevlar67 01:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Kamianets-Podilskyi
On the issue of East European cooperation, could we get some editors look at the recent history and talk page of Kamianets-Podilskyi and respond there or do something with the article? Thanks! --Irpen 22:17, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

List of heroes of Ukraine
The list is now complete. It was a months' work of putting together 146 names. You are welcome to stop by and check spelling. Sashazlv 04:36, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Sasha, thumbs up and a Barnstar! --Irpen 07:18, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Prometheism

 * Need your help on Międzymorze. I tried to English it as Polish imperialism, but was stymied by Polish editors. In the wikireality, the Russian colonization of Siberia is dubbed imperialism, but the Polish ambitions to extend their territory from one sea to another are not. What do you guys think? --Ghirlandajo 18:40, 2 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The problem is that you so far failed to provide any evidence that by allying himself with Petlura, Latvia and Hungary Piłsudski planned to expand Polish territory. Also, as usually you forgot to use the talk page... Halibutt 23:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * If I don't discuss my edits for hours on the talk pages, that;s only because I come here to edit and not to chatter. I pointed out on the relevant talk page that Pilsudski's words were belied by his actions. IMHO his aggression against Russia, his annexation of the Lithuanian capital, lost war against Czechs, and landing operation in the free city of Danzig are a clear indication of what he had in mind. It seems to me weird to start building a federation with, say, Lithuania by occupying its capital. You Poles think such approach towards your neighbours perfectly normal, as far as I can see. Now my hands are tied with other articles, but sometime later I plan to contribute a couple of articles on Polish history, to make the approach a bit more NPOV. Clearly, we need the details on the non-aggression pact of Poland with Hitler, about Polish-German partitioning of Czecholovakia in 1938, about the massacre of 60,000 Soviet prisoners of war in Pilsudski's gulags, etc, etc. --Ghirlandajo 01:32, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Dear Ghirlandajo, please reserve your own judgement for your blog or your posting to a political forum.
 * On the other hand, if you can provide referencies to creadible sources considering Pilsudski's plans as "imperialism", feel free to add this information along with all other POVs.
 * Renaming the whole article as "Polish imperialism" would mean pushing a single POV, which is against the Wikipedia policies.--AndriyK 09:49, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Ghirlandajo, but I'll have to aggree with AndriyK on this one. Unless you can provide sources, this is but your own interpretation of history. Apparently for you being attacked by a neighbour is also a sign of Imperialism (as in the case of Cieszyn Silesia), same with the outbreak of the Polish-Bolshevik War (please provide evidence on who was the attacker there). Also, take a look at the article you moved and the article on Central Lithuania for the reasons of the conflict over what-is-now Vilnius. And why Lithuania refused to ally herself with Poland and chose the Bolsheviks instead.


 * Also, as to the Piłsudski's gulags - I really await your contributions. Last year I read all three monographies on the topic (two Polish and one Russian) and I wonder if you'll be able to find any evidence outside of the famous YMCA report in which the official quuted that the prisoners were brutally massacred by the Polish guards, in the result one prisoner was killed. Oh my, if only WWII consisted only of such massacres... Halibutt 14:02, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Geographic naming
see Naming conventions/Geographic names

Oleksandr Moroz
The article on Oleksandr Moroz was substantially expanded. Please, check it for POVs. Sashazlv 21:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Polish invasion of Russia
I'm looking for your advice on what to do with the recently created Polish invasion of Russia redirect to Polish-Soviet War. The redirect was created by a Russian editor for reasons that are explained in its talk page. Now that it is created, we have to do something with it. I believe that the current redirect is quite inappropriate as while it may be disputed who invaded whom, most of the operations in 1918-1920 took part on soil of Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania and Poland but not Russia. As the result of the war mostly defined the fate of Ukraine for the next years, I'm interested in Ukraininan opinion about this name. --Lysy (talk) 15:40, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * There is another though closely related discussion on Talk:Russo-Polish War. --Ghirlandajo 17:13, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Please contribute there, so that this redirect page may become eligible for inclusion in the Lamest edit wars ever. —Michael Z. 2005-11-21 16:51 Z 
 * Why, is there any edit war going on there ? --Lysy (talk) 18:21, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Well why do you think I was asking for contributions? —Michael Z. 2005-11-21 21:26 Z 
 * If anything it should be a disambig, not a redirect. A POVed term, which should not be used much in a articlespace, but I don't see much harm in lettign the redirect be.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:43, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Red Ruthenia
Can anybody add Ukrainian spellings to counterbalance the Polish ones in the article on Red Rus? --Ghirlandajo 13:58, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Zakarpacie, Koriatowicz
Two questions: what is the correct English name for Zakarpacie? A redirect would be appreciated. Second - a fellow Wikipedian asked me about Koriatowicz family, but I couldn't find that much on Polish or English sites. Perhaps knowledge of Ukrainian and Russian languages may allow you to help him more?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:41, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * See Transcarpathia, Mukacheve, and my edits on Iuga of Moldavia. Koriatovich was Jury's patronimic: he was the son of Gedimin's son Koriat. As for the Kurcewicz family, it has nothing to do with Koriat in general and this issue in particular. --Ghirlandajo 12:18, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
 * More on Kurcewicz. Although admittedly of Gediminid stock, their early history is painfully obscure and their progenitor cannot be established with any degree of certainty. Like so many Gediminid families (e.g., Sangusko-Lubartowicz), they later assumed a false patronimic, claiming descent from a well-known early Gedimind potentate. Even if Gediminds, Princes Kurcewicz descended not from Koriat but rather from one of his obscure cousins, probably one of Narymunt's sons. --Ghirlandajo 12:22, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Template: User Ukraine
Template: User Ukraine has just been created. Feel free to edit it so that it looks nicer, and I encourage all Ukrainian Wikipedians to add the template to their user pages.--Pecher 08:12, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Ukrainian military stuff
I think we have a total disorder in the whole Category:Military of Ukraine. I started cleaning up the mess, but intensive help needed. Of course it is not a priority for Ukraine-editors, but the mess is awful... E.g., take a look at Category:Military equipment of Ukraine: aren't we waisting the resources of WP server with such a deep and confused branching? Ukrained 23:33, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I got rid of all the empty categories for naval ships, and moved Varyag up two or three levels. I suppose someone created these categories to mirror the organization in other countries' categories, but for now they are just confusing; they can be restored as more ship articles are created.  —Michael Z. 2005-12-30 23:47 Z 


 * Great, Michael, thank you for joining! If not informing readers enough on UA military, let's at least not mislead them. BTW, I forgot to explain some of my edits to UAF: their WEbsite is down, so I've deleted the link at all. Ukrained 00:05, 31 December 2005 (UTC)