Talk:Ásatrú

Untitled
Not all follwers of Ásatrú use heathen as a term, including Stephen McNallen. Stephen A. McNallen, an American Asatru leader, avoids "heathen" because in the "public mind" it means an "ignorant, superstitious, or uncouth person." Stephen A. McNallen. Asatru: A Native European Spirituality. Runestone Press. 2015. p. 2 ISBN 0972029257.--ThorLives (talk) 20:56, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Should Asatru and Ásatrú both redirect to Heathenry (new religious movement)?
Basic question: Should the Wikipedia articles on Asatru and Ásatrú both redirect to Heathenry (new religious movement)?

More information: At present, the article on Asatru serves as a redirect to Ásatrú, which is a disambiguation page. I would suggest that both articles should be converted into redirects that take the reader straight to Heathenry (new religious movement). In effect, the Icelandic term "Ásatrú", and its Anglicised spelling of "Asatru", are synonyms for a new religious movement that is termed "Heathenry" within the academic literature on the subject. To quote from the (academically sourced, GA-rated) Wikipedia article on Heathenry:


 * Another name for the faith is the Icelandic Ásatrú, which is more commonly rendered as Asatru in North America; this term translates as "allegiance to the Æsir" – the latter being a sub-set of deities in Norse mythology – with practitioners being known as Asatruer. This term is favored by practitioners who focus on the deities of Scandinavia, although is problematic as many Asatruer worship deities and entities other than the Æsir, such as the Vanir, valkyries, elves, and dwarves. Although initially a popular term of self-designation, usage of Ásatrú has declined as the religion has aged, particularly in Scandinavia.

I believe that this should be a fairly un-controversial change and would like to gain consensus in support of it from various otherwise un-involved editors. Other articles devoted to synonyms for Heathenry (such as Vanatru and Forn Sed) already exist as redirects that take the reader straight to it, and I believe that these two articles should join them. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:11, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Comments

 * Support as nominator. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:21, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Support assuming that there is no reason to keep here.  my only fear is that the far-right politics that characterize some new heathen practices may be cast onto others (like this), where they are not relevant. Do you have any thoughts on this? -Darouet (talk) 04:35, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * While the term "Odinism" is commonly used among racialist right Heathen groups, it is also used by those like the British Odinishof who don't. Similarly, while many non-racialist right Heathens use "Asatru", some racialist right Heathens do too. Problematically, there is no cut and dry terminological division between the racialist right and their non-racialist counterparts, no clear distinction between "Odinists" on the one hand and "Asatruer" on the other. Moreover, we have a whole section on racial issues over at the Heathenry (new religious movement) page which explains things in greater depth and which I believe will help to distinguish between the varied political persuasions within the Heathen movement. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:55, 7 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Merge for sure; these are obvious WP:POVFORKS. I appears that "Heathenry" is both WP:POV (per earlier info copied for reference below) and WP:NEOLOGISM (even more so than Asatru), and is one that is not widely used outside of sources actively promoting the term (a WP:INDY failure).  In the end, I think a WP:DESCRIPTDIS is the answer, using a title like Germanic neopaganism (or neo-paganism, however we're spelling that). That's a correct, attested, neutral, precise enough, recognizable enough, and scope-descriptive enough title. The use of "Heathenry" and what it does and doesn't encompass can be covered, along with Asatru and Vanatru, Odinism, etc.  I would also merge the American Asatru article in.  After that content has been made wiki-sane, then it might be conceivable re-WP:SPLIT an Asatru article off if the main article is too long (and not along nationalistic lines). I'm highly skeptical that the present two (three!) articles can easily be salvaged in situ because they're all clearly pushing conflict, internecine factionalism PoV angles.  Frankly, as a reader/editor, it's ridiculous to me that the main article is at Heathenry which fails WP:PRECISE, WP:RECOGNIZABLE, WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:NPOV at at once.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  11:47, 11 December 2015 (UTC)


 * With respect, I believe that a number of statements being made here are simply not correct and will likely mislead un-involved editors who have no familiarity with the subject matter. The claim that the main article on this subject matter is at Heathery is simply false; the main article is at Heathenry (new religious movement). They should not be deliberately confused. Moreover, I see no evidence for the claim that Heathenry (new religious movement) pushes "conflict, internecine factionalism PoV angles". No evidence at all. Indeed, it has been constructed (primarily by myself) through the extensive use of academic studies of the religion in question, and has recently been awarded GA status on the basis of that. Give SMcCandlish's implication that I am a factional POV pusher (assuming bad faith?), I would like to stress that I am not a practitioner of this religion at all, and have contributed to articles on quite a wide range of different religious movements, from the Radical Faeries to LaVeyan Satanism; I have no specific religiously-motivated or factional POV to push but am simply following the example set by the academic sources, which is to use "Heathenry" as the name for the religion in question.
 * Furthermore, the statement that the use of "Heathenry" as the main term to describe the religion fails "WP:PRECISE, WP:RECOGNIZABLE, WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:NPOV at at once [sic]" is equally untrue; I have already laid forth the clear reasons for why "Heathenry" is the most commonly used and most appropriate name for the religion and why "Germanic Neopaganism" would be totally inappropriate here, if anyone wishes to examine the arguments in greater depth. Apologies if my above comment comes across as a little too defensive, but I'm not particularly happy about the way that myself and my contributions are being unfairly misrepresented here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:54, 11 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Support far too many POV forks in this area Snowded  TALK 19:14, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

It's now been a month since this RfC was opened, and all contributors to the discussion have agreed that the Asatru articles should be converted to redirects taking the reader to Heathenry (new religious movement). Accordingly, I shall make the necessary alterations. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:38, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

For reference

 * may or may not be relevant to this issue. Wbm1058 (talk) 19:23, 11 December 2015 (UTC)