Talk:Æthelred of Mercia

Cædwalla's abdication
I've put in some text suggesting that Cædwalla's abdication may have been one of the destabilizing factors that led to the events in Kent over the next few years. Unfortunately Kirby doesn't come out and say this, so I'd like another opinion on whether this is original research, or just a logical deduction. The ref in Kirby is to page 122 in my edition; a few pages into the subsection on "The ascendancy of Cædwalla" in the "Southumbrian kingdoms" chapter, chapter 6. Mike Christie (talk) 20:41, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * That's what I read Kirby as saying. No novel syntheses in sight. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Further data
Turned up while I was hunting for the Hlothhere stuff...

From the for what it's worth department, while AEthelred was king, Theodore of Tarsus was carrying out a rather large reorganization of the ecclesiastical provinces in Mercia. Theodore deposed Winfred (bishop) from Bishop of Lichfield in about 675, and then about 675 to 679 he divided up Mercia into five dioceses - Diocese of Lichfield that took in Mercia, Bishop of Leicester for the Middle Angles, Bishop of Dorchester (historic) for the Thames valley, Bishop of Worcester for the Hwicce, and what later became Bishop of Hereford beyond the Severn. (ref is Kirby, D. P. The Making of Early England Schocken Books; New York 1967 p. 49) That's a pretty hefty reorg there, even though not every single one took root immediately. Combined with what Theodore drove through in Northumbria (Where he split up York into three dioceses and drove Wilfrid out in the process) that's probably the biggest change in ecclesiastical patterns up until Henry VIII did the reformation and made a pile of new bishoprics. I'm thinking this is something that should be mentioned at least, even if not to this depth. Unfortunately, nothing in there about Hlothhere. Ealdgyth | Talk 01:17, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I added a shortened paragraph under "Early reign" which seemed the best place for it. I agree; worth adding. Mike Christie (talk) 02:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Question
Would you want the ONDB entries for AEthelred and Hlothhere? Ealdgyth | Talk 01:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, if you see anything there that could be added to the article. Mike Christie (talk) 02:09, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Email me and I'll send the attachment back as a Word doc Ealdgyth | Talk 02:17, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Osthryth
Copied over from my talk page; an old to-do task for this article. Placing it here so I might have a chance to remember to do it. Mike Christie (talk) 22:25, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi! You asked me for a secondary reference for the possible reasons for Osthryth's murder. The ODNB article by Ann Williams, "Æthelred (d. after 704)" (Oxford University Press, 2004), includes a sentence: "Deteriorating relations with Northumbria are suggested by the murder in 697 of Queen Osthryth". There is also footnote 127 on page 390 of the Oxford World's Classics edition of The Ecclesiastical History of the English People edited by Judith McClure and Roger Collins, translated by Bertram Colgrave, (1994, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0192838660): "[hostility of the Bardney monastery to the cult of Oswald] and the murder of Osthryth suggest how sensitive the Mercians remained over earlier attempts of the Northumbrians to dominate them." I know that isn't quite what I said but I suspect you can construct something along similar lines. DrKiernan (talk) 14:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * OK -- I will put something in. Thanks for the ref!  I am working on the WP:MMM project right now, which is getting close to deadline, but should get to Aethelred this weekend at the latest.  Thanks! Mike Christie (talk) 03:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Points from ODNB
This is a first rate article, but ODNB articles throw a different light on a couple of points. 1. The article mentions Wilfrid's expulsion from York in the early 680s. According to the ODNB article on Æthelred by Ann Williams Æthelred sided against Wilfrid until Ecgfrith's death in 685. 2. Kirby is cited for saying that Ceolred was not Osthryth's son, but Susan Kelly in her ODNB articles on Osfryth] and Ceolred states that she probably was his mother. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:31, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm at work, and don't have access to the ODNB article anyway, so if you would go ahead and make suitable changes to the article that would be great. If you don't have time I'll do it when I can get access to the article.  Thanks for checking into it -- always nice to improve these when they're on the front page. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 14:34, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I will do it after work. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:02, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Kirby, Making of Early England
This book appears in the notes, but not in the references. I presume it is:



(which I found on Hygeberht) but it may be another edition of that book. Ælfgar (talk) 07:30, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi Mike I see you are travelling but perhaps you could take a look at this query when you get back. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:11, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Looks like I added that back in 2008. I don't have that book, and have no memory of getting a library copy, so I think I must have been able to see enough of the text on Google Books to add the information.  It looks like Google Books refers to the 1967 version, but I can't be sure. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 17:08, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

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