Talk:Çoban salatası

= Comments =

Merger
This should be merged with Israeli salad. They are practically the same, and the Iranian Salad Shirazi version is already there, so this small article can be merged in without any problem. The Behnam 20:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Please ask for mergers before making additions. I am not against a merger proposal, though I am against this merger. See gyros, shawarma, döner kebab, which are closer. You also removed 'very' from 'very finely' on Israeli salad, and also sugary. denizTC 22:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, I don't see the problem. The 'very' in "very finely" doesn't add anything as 'finely' already implies that it is quite well-diced.  "Sugary" was removed from the phrase "before the advent of sugary breakfast cereals", and I simply couldn't see the necessity of the term, though you can re-add it if that change bothered you.  I think it would be best to simply say when this change actually happened.  Anyway, I don't think that those changes made a crisis so I don't know what the fuss is, but let's go back to the main issue.  The Behnam 22:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be a variety of popular chopped salads in Anatolia, Persia, and the Levant, not identical, but with a family resemblance. The Persian and Armenian variants tend to use more fresh herbs (mint, dill, chervil). An Arabic version is called "Salatit khodar meshakel". The "Israeli salad" in Claudia Roden's Book of Middle Eastern Food is heavier, including beets, avocadoes, potatoes, and hard-boiled eggs, but perhaps tastes have changed -- or perhaps there is a wide range of recipes. My tendency would be to merge the Turkish, Persian, Armenian, Lebanese, and Israeli salads in an article on "Middle Eastern chopped salad" or some such, talking both about the similarities and the differences. --Macrakis 22:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * And the Balkans; the Greeks do this too. The phrasing that all these "are" Israeli salad, now in that article, is not the most desirable, even if identical recipes can be cited. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm aiming for a centralized article. I saw that Israeli salad and Salad Shirazi were already grouped, so I figured it would be best to centralize, and pending a response from User:Amoruso, I assumed that 'Israeli salad' was just the name for it.  Personally I've never seen 'Israeli salad' marked anywhere in the US, but I have seen 'village salad' at Lebanese restaurants.  "Middle Eastern chopped salad" does seem a more general term.  By the way, what was wrong with my merger proposal? It says "suggested" so I don't see why people are getting mad at me for putting the tag up.  That's the best way to draw people to the discussion, if I am not mistaken.  The Behnam 22:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it's best to avoid an article title that seems to identify this salad with one particular ethnic group or country -- unless of course we have some source that clearly pinpoints its origin. Once there is a single article, there is room (as I say above) for both discussion of similarities and discussion of variants and differences. If it turns out that the article is getting too big, or the content is getting too heterogeneous, then we can split off parts. Of course, there has to be some limit to the merging. Shopska salata and Greek salad are different enough, I think, as is tabbouleh. --Macrakis 23:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree that we should stay away from the ethnic-type names unless that is the definite English convention. I myself haven't seen 'Israeli salad' anywhere yet in the US, so I don't think there is any widespread usage there.  However, I am concerned about choosing a centralized name that is also a 'standard' English word for the salad.  As I've mentioned, I've seen "village salad", but of course I'm interested in other findings.  In the end we may have to choose "Middle Eastern chopped salad" even if that isn't a term actually used at any specific location.  The Behnam 23:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Çoban is not an ethnic term (it is a Turkish word, though, if you mean by that). I don't like 'generalising' to Middle eastern salad either, also how it is any less ethnic? Why are we creating a possibly non-existing notion? Wikipedia is not the place for that. We don't need to have all articles reach FA quality, though this can possibly reach that. I am against a merger, to sum up. We have Russian salad, Greek salad, Serbian salad, ethnicity is not a no-no. Once again, Çoban is not an ethnicity. denizTC 16:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I know that Çoban is not an ethnic term; I was alluding to "Israeli salad" and the like.


 * Russian salad is quite distinct, and that is its common name in English.


 * I wasn't aware of Serbian salad; it does indeed sound like part of the Middle Eastern chopped salad family. I don't think Greek salad belongs with Middle Eastern chopped salad because it is usually not finely chopped, and usually includes feta and olives.


 * As for "creating a notion"; that is not the intent. I think the notion exists, and has multiple names. But that is what we are discussing.  Could you provide some facts showing that Çoban salad is in fact a distinct notion from the Persian, Lebanese, and Israeli versions, and not part of a family? --Macrakis 16:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm saying that we are basing this on an anon edit, please see below. Are they really the same? I haven't eaten Israeli salad or Iranian salad, but looking at the articles I do not see why they are the same with the Coban salad. The rationale used was usage of and ethnic name, I don't think that is any good reason for a merger. If you insist that these salads are in fact the same, I might change my opinion, 'similar' might not be enough. I don't think the nominator knows that they are the same. Please see this and this. I am not saying that there is only one way to do them. We might classify them under non-potato salads, this would be very similar to the 'middle eastern', may be even better if we don't want to have ethnicities in the title. I guess you guys wouldn't want to call it non-potato salads. Also, coban salad may include feta as well. Olive oil is a common thing for salads in Turkey. denizTC 20:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * We can have a category of chopped salads. denizTC 20:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, after this discussion, I am going to put a fact tag for this anon addition, if I don't forget denizTC 16:12, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I added the same tag to the equivalent statement in this article, which appears likely to have been the source of the cited, tagged edit in the Israeli salad article. Interestingly, this salad isn't mentioned in the Turkish cuisine article (but then, that article mentions only two salads). --Rich Janis 09:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

On the merger topic. I'm almost neutral. I like the concept, but I see some difficulty in finding a good name for the merged article. I'd think that a viable merger would depend on a firm consensus for the new article's name and list of included articles. From your comments above, my preference (ignorant of WP preference, if there is one) of criteria for choosing or naming the "master" article would be: Despite my placing the generic name in third place, I could easily justify its move to first place simply to avoid the likely difficulty of finding good authentication for a name that satisfies one of the other criteria.
 * 1) The most-widely recognized name in English for the merged group of salads, if there is any such group name; or
 * 2) The name that identifies the salad's origin, if that can be determined; or
 * 3) A clearly generic descriptive name. For this purpose, "Middle Eastern chopped salad" is a good start, but I think that it gives the likely false impression of being an official, almost non-generic name. Making it plural ("...salads") would help, but that might violate a WP preference for singular titles. "Middle Eastern cuisine" might work, although that's obviously a much broader concept.

Even without a merger, someone could prepare a "Table of Middle Eastern chopped salads" article to facilitate seeing the comparisons and contrasts among the different salad recipes.

My 2¢ worth, --Rich Janis 09:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)