Talk:Éamon de Valera/Archive 4

From Civil War to Prime Minister
hey, i think the whole first passge in teh introduction is a bit POV, the stuff about his republicanism dying after the creation of fianna fail! could somebody a little bit more technically able then me please change that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.19.82.254 (talk) 02:15, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You're right, total weasel phrase. "As many believe," indeed. Taking it out now. Dppowell (talk) 02:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Treaty Delegates
It seems to be a common theme to omit any mention of Eamonn Duggan and George Gavan Duffy and their role as voting deleagtes, on par with Barton, Griffith and Collins(although admittedly the latter were the leaders. This should be sorted out because it's factually inaccurate to imply only Griffith, Collins and Barton had voting rights —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lazarus89 (talk • contribs) 02:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * So why not add the details if you also provide verifiable sources as I already mentioned on your talk page. ww2censor (talk) 03:08, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Derogatory Article?
This seems to me to basically slander a man who is highly respected and did more than anyone to shape 20th Century Ireland. It seems to constantly potray him as fantasizing and unreasonable from 1916 onwards and if you compare the glowing terms that men in the Pro-Treaty side of things are dealt with on wikipedia; I would like to know the political bias of the person writing these articles. Boland's Mills was the only place to not be taken by the British and De Valera commanded only 17 men. I really don't like the tone of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.195.185 (talk) 17:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Can't say I understand your concern, as I must admit to not having fully read the article. Slander towards Valera seems to be the norm among Irishmen. Never the less, they seem to just keep on voting on his party-political desendants, where Brian Cowen is just one of them. Just strange. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.69.144 (talk) 01:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Juan Vivion de Valera
I have proposed that the article Juan Vivion de Valera be merged here.

WP:BIO is clear that "'person A has a relationship with well-known person B is not a reason for a standalone article on A (unless significant coverage can be found on A); see Relationships do not confer notability. However, person A may be included in the related article on B.'"

There seems to be very few sources relating to his father, and therefore no chance of establishing independent notability for him, so the article should be merged to Éamon de Valera. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:50, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Disagree, as the search for Juan V is still ongoing. See the link I posted today.Red Hurley (talk) 10:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC) The main issue, though, is that Relationships do not confer notability, and JUan V has no other claim to notability. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The fact that research is being undertaken does not make Juan V notable. The link you added is to a historian's homepage, and as a self-published document it fails WP:RS.
 * I'm not so sure that Murphy's research fails our RS criteria simply because it is self-published. He is clearly an expert genealogist of Irish political figures who has been published in peer-reviewed books and journals. I do agree that the father fails notability in his own right, and reference to him should be included here. RashersTierney (talk) 14:04, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

howdy. i dont know if anyones in the mood for some research into the matter but on devaleras father- his mother was a maid for mansergh of grennane. she left for america and came back with eamon. he used to spend his summers with the manserghs of greenane, its a rumour that the unaccounted for money used to get eamon his education came from nicholas mansergh. the final thing that fuels the rumours that maybe mansergh is the father of eamon is the resemblance between the current mansergh, martin, and eamon o cuiv. these rumours have been there since i was a young lad, 40 years ago. but ive never seen a serious discussion on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.130.120.206 (talk) 14:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Éamon de Bhailéara
In line with a discussion held two years ago on the subject's name, the alleged Irish-language version "Éamon de Bhailéara" was removed, in line with the Irish Manual of Style. Éamon de Valera almost universally wrote his name as Éamon de Valera in English and Irish and was almost universally known by that name.

Incidentally, the "Éamon de Bhailéara" version was added on January 5 by User:Abstrakt, who claims no knowledge of the Irish language on his talk page.--Damac (talk) 19:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I've seen a copy of an order which de Valera received from Professor Mac Néill - leader of the Irish Volunteers, and it clearly uses an Irish form of the name and not de Valera so the name was in use during de Valera's lifetime and was used by at least one person who wrote to him. I note also that the Irish version of Wikipedia uses de Bhailéara as an Irish form for de Valera. Also the Official record of the Dáil from 21 January 1919 uses the form Eamonn de Bhaléra - a slightly different version, but proof possitive (from an official source) that there was an Irish form of his name in use, in Ireland, during his own lifetime and by an institution of which he eventually became the leading voice see http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/DT/D.F.O.191901210004.html, another example "Gearóid Mac Phárthaláin: A Chinn Chomhairle, tá sé d'onóir agam an [19] Teachta Eamon ****de Bhaléra*** a mholadh mar Thaoiseach. Ní gá dhom cur síos go mion nó go sonrach ar a bhfuil déanta aige d'Éirinn, mar tá sé sin i mbéal na ndaoine." (18 February 1938, URL http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0110/D.0110.194802180005.html) As can be seen his name generally appears as 'de Bhaléara' in the Dáil records however there is at least one example of 'de Bhailéara' " Nach cuma le Teachta De Bhailéara ....."http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0040/D.0040.193111180039.html" 18 November 1931. I am going to add the Irish version used by the Dáil to this article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.30.252 (talk) 00:54, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Can we do something about this "^ "Éamon(n)" actually translates into English as Edmond or Edmund. The correct Irish translation of "Edward" is Éadhbhard". Eamon(n) is used as an translation of Edward, as well as Edmond/Edmund, there is no such thing as a 'correct' translation in this context other than that which is used by speakers of Irish or within Irish society. My brother is Eamon named after his grandfather Edward. My mother has cousins Eamon all of whom were based on Edward. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.30.252 (talk) 08:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Most people I know in Northern Ireland would have "Eamonn" as the Irish, "Eamon" as the anglicisation. I've only ever seen de Valera's first name in print as "Eamonn". I agree with the above on the interchangeability of Edmund/Edmond/Edward. Starviking (talk) 11:12, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The name of the constitution
Even if we set aside the fact that this is the English language Wikipedia and that using the Irish name of the constitution goes against the naming convention, using it in the opening paragraph of this article is poor editorial practice. Very few general readers are going to know what "Bunreacht na hÉireann" is. Someone learning for the first time who de Valera was is not going to gain understanding from "De Valera is also often cited as the principal author of Bunreacht na hÉireann." For all they know, "Bunreacht na hÉireann" is a manifesto, an historical narrative, or maybe even a novel. Saying he was the principal author of the constitution is infinitely clearer. Dppowell (talk) 04:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

South Down
In Tim Pat Coogan's book, he records that de Valera was standing as a UK Parliamentary Candidate for South Down when he was arrested in the north in 1924 (p 375); on the next page he states that he was "returned for South Down", but this is not followed up in the book. Incidentally, in 1918 de Valera also stood for South Down, and received thirty three votes, but I cannot find this in Coogan's book. Millbanks (talk) 08:11, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * There wasn't a "South Down" constituency in the UK Parliament between 1922 and 1950 - it was part of a combined Down constituency (and had the same boundaries as the multi-member Down constituency that de Valera was elected for in the Stormont parliament in both 1921 & 1925). de Valera does not appear to have made it to the ballot paper in 1924 or any other election for the UK Parliament Down constituency. The only time de Valera was returned for anything called "South Down" was in the 1933 Stormont election.
 * In 1918 de Valera was nominated in South Down, but Sinn Fein and the Irish Parliamentary Party agreed a limited pact in Ulster to maximise their votes, with Sinn Fein calling for a vote for the sitting IPP MP, Jeremiah McVeagh, in that seat. Presumably it was too late to withdraw de Valera's nomination. Timrollpickering (talk) 23:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Sources and citations
For a person of this importance, which has been written about extensively, there are many paragraphs that have absolutely no citations and there is no list of reliable third-party sources. Can anyone help out? Who knows, if we improved the article it might even be good enough to become a FA or at least a GA. It has been 4 years since it was last a featured article candidate and does not seem to have improved much since then even though there have been many edits. Thanks ww2censor (talk) 21:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The infamous condolancy
In my view, it is only diplomaticaly correct to condole to a foreign Ambassadeur if his Head of State has deceased while in office (Dev was very concerned with diplomatical correctness). Did he offer the same condollances to other Ambassadeurs in a likewise situation? Surely he condoled the death of Roosevelt just two weeks earlier? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.69.144 (talk) 01:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * When FDR died deV ordered all flags to be flown at half mast. When the US embassy was contacted about condolences, Gray - the ambassador said that he would not receive deV.  A memorial service was scheduled at the proCathedral - again Gray would not attend ClemMcGann (talk) 02:05, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Brace yourself
Oh my. O Fenian (talk) 23:52, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * no doubt this will be a WP:RS ClemMcGann (talk) 00:30, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the Indo claims the author is a historian, and he'll be published... makes him at least as reliable a source as, oh, the Aubane Historical Society... Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * One way to get noticed, media appearances, sell books ClemMcGann (talk) 20:56, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "....Dismisses any claim it was because of being born in the US, and that would jeapordise...". Not an exact quote, but it got me thinking what if he would be shot. Would the US Gov't have an explanation for what was accepted in the early 1900s? How would the US explain that they accepted the formation of illegal combatants? Back in our own time, what if a person born in Norway should die in Sri Lanka as an illegal combatant? He may have attacked an Army base without being uniformed? Sri Lanka would wonder what actually happens in Norway. Good thing I won't have to explain for it. Speaking about Norway, it will happen. Again, I won't explain anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.222.45 (talk) 18:08, 3 February 2010 (UTC) 85.164.222.45 (talk) 22:26, 3 February 2010 (UTC)--85.164.222.45 (talk) 22:29, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Explanation? Such questions must be forwarded to Erik Solheim?
 * So Eamonn joined the MI5? Did he archebusate his own guerilla soldiers? Is it also the fact that he was born in NY? Good enough for Eamonn = Good enough for Are-Landt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.222.45 (talk) 16:19, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

As long as editors cite the author and not Stacey International as a source, because Stacey International like Aubane Historical Society are just the publishers.-- Domer48 'fenian'  22:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I look forward to that book. BigDunc  22:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)