Talk:Éminence grise

Use of the term grey eminence
We need more examples of people that have been referred to, our referred to themselves as "The Grey Eminence" or some derivitive. Mathiastck 14:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

See http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/21/world/middleeast/21ross.html?hp 156.111.216.132 (talk) 16:03, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Stub tags
I wasn't sure whether to put job-stub on this article. I wanted a stub cat for positions of power but couldn't find one, so I used that one instead. -- Thin boy  00  @051, i.e. 00:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Cardinalate
the leclerc du tremblay article says he was made a cardinal late in life; this one says he never was. which is correct? Ahuitzotl (talk) 18:47, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * He died on the same day the Pope decided to make him a Cardinal. According to O'Connell (p. 375), Pere Joseph [du Tremblay] died on Saturday 18 December, and on that day Urban VIII, as yet unaware of events in Paris, appointed him to the Sacred College.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tpudlik (talk • contribs) 05:27, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Why one, and only one, example of 21st century use?
The term has doubtless been used hundreds if not thousands of times in the nine years of the 21st century to date. Why pick one? Shouldn't this either be more filled out - and what are the criteria for inclusion? - or removed altogether? (I am not familiar with Wiki conventions for pages about such phrases.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.139.0.53 (talk) 14:20, 20 August 2009 (UTC) --Jerome Potts (talk) 21:00, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Edward M. House
 * Bernard Baruch —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReithBBC (talk • contribs) 17:40, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Harry Hopkins
 * fr:Jean Jardin
 * fr:Marie-France Garaud
 * Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev
 * Martin Bormann
 * Madame de Pompadour, if she had kept in the shade
 * Henry Kissinger
 * St. John Philby
 * Egon Bahr
 * This question was already raised in 2006 (see above) and is answered below. --JHvW (talk) 20:35, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Very good article
Although this is a very small article, I believe it is excellent and should not be called a stub. It dispells some urban legends. Many people believe that an Éminence grise refers to an eminent, older statesman (one who is grey, this is in the article but incorrect). He could of course be an Éminence grise, but this article explains where the term came from.

In the article a citation is asked for the term grey (or gray). If you look in the Wikipedia at Greyfriar you will be directed to Franciscan. The Capuchin are an order of monks who live according to "The Rule of St. Francis", St. Francis being Francis of Assisi. They wore habits with hoods which were of a "coffee with milk" colour (which is reputed to have given cappucino it's name). If you look at a map of the center of London for example, you will see many names that find their roots in the monastries these orders had in London: blackfriars (Dominican), greyfriars, whitefriars (Carmelites). These were all named after the colour of their traditional habit. The Capuchin were known as the Grey (or Gray) Friars, as they wore "grayish, brownish or coffee with milk" coloured robes. It is also possible that the translation of grey or gray is not correct, as grise in French can also mean dull, meaning that Franciscan habits were of indeterminate colour.

If a person is considered to be a "Grey Eminence" that is often quite subjective. It could be put in the article on that specific person, quoting source, and referring to this article. The fact that the term is used often is probably correct but may be conjecture. As the Wikipedia would like to be considered an encyclopaedia, a list of names considered to be "Grey Eminences" does not add to the value of this article. If absolutely desired, a few (documented) examples should be enough.

It should be noted that other religious orders had strong influences on the politics of their time, for example Cardinal Richelieu, sometimes referred to as the "Red Eminence" (and a close friend of Père Joseph). The jesuit priests have had their own influence, but do not have an official habit. So referring to a person as an "Éminence grise" is subjective and should therefore be sourced.

There is one point I do not completely agree with. The term "eminence" was used liberally until the 10th of June 1630, when Pope Urban VIII decreed that it should only be used, within the Roman Catholic Church, to address Cardinals. In all likelyhood Père Joseph was addressed as "your eminence" because of his great influence. Before that time Cardinals were usually addressed as Illustrissimi or Reverendissimi. As Père Joseph died in 1638, I do not think that the decision of Pope Urban would have had much influence on the way he was addressed.

In fiction Père Joseph is also mentioned, as is mentioned in the article, in The Three Musketeers by Alexandre Dumas: "After the king and the cardinal, M. de Treville (captain of the musketeers) was the man whose name was perhaps most frequently repeated by the military, and even by citizens. There was, to be sure, Father Joseph, but his name was never pronounced but with a subdued voice, such was the terror inspired by his Gray Eminence, as the cardinal’s familiar was called".

--JHvW (talk) 10:51, 17 August 2010 (UTC)


 * What I find to be most noteworthy is your remark about Grise meaning bland or unassuming. Could this then reference not only colour, but also the way in which the authority is used? du Tremblay was puported to be a careful and unassuming leader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.174.169.54 (talk) 01:58, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Father Joseph was very much a "behind the scenes" person. He was also a religious zealot. The fact that his habit made him inconspicious may very well have been to his liking. But most people of the time knew of him and the influence he wielded. It is unclear wether he wielded his power for personal reasons or to advance his religious convictions. He lay down his rights as a nobleman to become a Capuchin priest. The Capuchins at that time were notorious. Originally because they wanted a more strict adherence to the Rule of St Francis but many of these Franciscans had dubious religious beliefs (one of the founder members Matteo Serafini returned to the Franciscan Observants and another, Bernardino Ochino, became a protestant), although it must be said that they were regarded as reformers (in the good sense). It is only later that the order became an order in its own right. As we are talking about the 17th century, it is unlikely that this will ever become clear. But his influence on Cardinal de Richelieu was unmistakable. As a matter of amusement you may find it interesting that Richelieu was known as the Red Eminence (very much in the public eye) whereas father Joseph was known as the Grey Eminence (the one that lurks in the shadows). 77.167.212.162 (talk) 21:54, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Grey & Franciscans
In pre-Reformation Scotland, at least, Franciscans were known as Grey Friars. Dominicans were Black Friars, and the White Friars were Carmelites.
 * I believe I had already answered this. JHvW 09:28, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

The Edinburgh tale of the faithful dog who wouldn't leave his master's grave still draws tourists to the Old Greyfriars Kirk, where the grave is. The dog was known as Greyfriars Bobby. ReithBBC (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2010 (UTC)ReithBBC
 * It is unclear to me what the information in this remark is. I have already established that grey may be a corruption of gray. There are some amusing similarities though. In Scotland Kirk is often used when church (English) is meant. Kirk is probably derived from other Germanic languages: kirche (German), kerk (Dutch) or kirk (Scandinavian).
 * The tale of Greyfriars Bobby is probably an (enduring) urban myth. The dog did indeed exist but hung around the graveyard in the hope of obtaining scraps of food. Interestingly, if Bobby did indeed hang around his masters grave, that person would probably have been John Gray. JHvW 09:28, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Cheneyphobia
This article is in two parts. The first part is devoted to François Leclerc du Tremblay, the second to ... Dick Cheney?

As earlier commenters here have noted, there are likely hundreds of people who have been widely, and justifiably, referred to using the term "grey eminence." I would concur with a previous commenter who mentioned Edward M. House, Bernard Barach, and Martin Bormann; I would also add Clark Clifford to the list, and perhaps the younger Hillary Rodham Clinton, who (without an elected position) wielded great power in the Bill Clinton administration's attempt to formulate health-care policy.

I would also note that "grey eminence" refers to a power that operates "behind the scenes" or "in a non-public or unofficial capacity." It can be argued that VP Cheney therefore hardly qualified for the designation, as he was certainly acting as a public official -- and was indeed officially the first man in line to assume the presidency.

Be that as it may, whatever one thinks of Dick Cheney, it is extraordinarily biased and highly inflammatory to link his name to the Wikipedia article on "Capo di tutti capi," or organized crime bosses. The descriptive term "godfather" in itself is sufficiently varied and ambiguous to suffice as the link; people can draw their own conclusions as to the shade of meaning.

Finally, the last line in this article, as it currently stands has nothing to do with the subject of "grey eminence"; it is simply a comment about Dick Cheney. In fact, however, there is a reference to the term elsewhere in the article; accordingly I suggest revising said concluding sentence to make it at least glancingly pertinent to the actual topic under discussion.

NicholasNotabene (talk) 02:50, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
 * OK. Herostratus (talk) 19:42, 20 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I took care of it, and edited the article so that it was supported by the source. I also added someone else as an example, so it isn't as Cheney-focused now.--FeralOink (talk) 10:37, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Removed interpretation based on possibly guessed etymology "grey-haired"
I removed the following paragraph with an alternative history for the term, based on the etymology "grey-haired" which is probably a mere guess:


 * An éminence grise can alternatively refer to an elderly ("grey-haired") personage who is renowned for past accomplishments and now acts as an advisor, instead of a principal actor. They might be politically influential as a consequence of their honored status within an influential group or society as a whole—for example, a distinguished retired physics professor emeritus who advises scientific leaders and government officials on nuclear energy; or a retired U.S. Senator who advises the President on an informal basis, etc.

--Jorge Stolfi (talk) 00:43, 28 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello, Professor Stolfi! It is I, your friend, FreshOutOfGeekistan from reddit :o) Your edit to this article was a good call. While I am here, I think I'll add Dennis Ross as an example of an eminence grise. Maybe that will take some of the undue emphasis away from Dick Cheney, as he was hardly behind the scenes as vice president of the United States.--FeralOink (talk) 09:11, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
 * P.S. I really enjoyed reading this sub-page of yours!--FeralOink (talk) 09:17, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

"House of Cards" Spoilers
DON'T DO THAT! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:191:8400:fa20:2c18:10be:cdd7:9130 (talk) 03:23 7 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Spoilers are ok on Wikipedia. See Spoiler, but that information doesn't really add anything to the topic, so I don't see a reason to add it back. SchreiberBike &#124; ⌨   03:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)