Talk:Ógra Shinn Féin

Ideology
I am changing the ideology from democratic socialism to just socialism, as per Ógra Shinn Féin constitution and Sinn Féin constitution, democratic socialism has become a muddied term and is often conflated with social democracy, it is a minor but important change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.168.206 (talk) 12:15, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Notability
I'll try and sort it out later. One Night In Hackney 303 20:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm really, really not sure what to do with this. I'm not convinced the youth wing is notable enough for its own article, as its aims and objectives are the same as the main party. If I trim out all the advertising type blurbs, then all that's going to be left is a basic stub with no real purpose. I'm tending to think a brief mention that Sinn Féin has a youth wing in the main article might be best, so redirect this page to SF? One Night In Hackney 303 09:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep - There seems to be no encyclopedic content - redirect by all means Weggie 16:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thats not what you said about Young Unionists!--Vintagekits 20:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Conflict of interest
Editors who may have a conflict of interest are not barred from participating in articles and discussion of articles where they have a conflict of interest, but must be careful when editing in mainspace. Compliance with this guideline requires discussion of proposed edits on talk pages and avoiding controversial edits in mainspace.

This article has benefited from the lengthy edits of registered "team editors" but they should declare an interest here if they are not to risk being blocked for failure to declare.

Please read the behavioural guidelines outlined above and consider the advantages of declaring an interest and continuing to contribute. Thank you! W. Frank talk ✉ 13:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * What or where does this COI come from and who are you refering to.?.--padraig 13:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

As an alleged member of the "team" could you please tell me what the hell you are going on about know re COI your paranoid rants are starting to get very very silly now will you show evidence for all this crap you keep putting on talk pages or just shut up.BigDunc 13:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Just ignore the these type of comments, they will use any thing to make a point. But if they do not abide by talk page guidelines, they will be reported. --Domer48 19:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the team could stop talking amongst themselves and

Fix the dates in the infobox
please. W. Frank talk ✉ 22:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * And what is wrong with the Date. ? also try being more civil in your edit summaries, there is no team.--padraig 23:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Probably wrong and definitely unsourced. W. Frank talk ✉ 00:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I always thought it was 1982 myself but I may be wrong on that, and why would the date need to be sourced.--padraig 00:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Everything needs to be sourced that is not obvious common knowledge on our project - otherwise it can be peremptorily removed. (Probably not by me, though. You should have realised by now that I'm a bit of an inclusionist). W. Frank talk ✉ 00:28, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The reason I believe they formed in 1982 is that many of the founding members where involved in 'Youth against the H-Blocks' which where involved with the National H-block/Armagh Committee groups around the country in organising protests during the hunger strikes, unless 1983 was the formal launch date of Ogra arising from informal meetings held during 1982.--padraig 00:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

What exactly was "the motion"?
Currently, our article states: "At the Special Congress in 2007 called during the Policing Debates in Sinn Féin, Ógra Shinn Féin took the controversial step of voting to not support the motion put to the Sinn Féin Special Ard Fheis by the Ard Chomhairle. This was in total opposition to the leadership of Sinn Féin. In their motion that was passed at the Special Congress they stated "We will recognise the decision made by the Ard Fheis"

Don't we need to state exactly what this controversial motion was? W. Frank talk ✉ 09:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I will see if I can find out what the wording of the Ogra motion was, I think the use of the word controversial is misleading, Ogra voted against the policing motion which was their right to do so, but there was nothing controversial about them doing so, many Sinn Féin cumann also proposed motions against, that is quite normal.--padraig 10:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It is not "the Ogra motion" that I wish clarified. I'm sorry that you misunderstood my query. I'll try and be less ambiguous (you know that's a constant theme of mine, by now):
 * What were the exact terms of "the motion put to the Sinn Féin Special Ard Fheis by the Ard Chomhairle" (presumably one about supporting the Police Authority)?
 * If "the motion put to the Sinn Féin Special Ard Fheis by the Ard Chomhairle" was indeed one about supporting a Police Authority, then we need to consider if there are references to support a lack of support as controversial (since a majority of our readers living in non-totalitarian states probably regard the police as "a good thing" and will need a sourced explanation of why, in the Irish context, supporting a Police Authority might be considered "a bad thing" and not worthy of support). W. Frank talk ✉ 13:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Below is the motion put forward :

''This Ard Fheis reiterates Sinn Féin’s political commitment to bringing about Irish re-unification and the full integration of political, economic, social and cultural life on the island.

This Ard Fheis supports civic policing through a police service which is representative of the community it serves, free from partisan political control and democratically accountable.

We support fair, impartial and effective delivery of the rule of law.

The changes to policing secured in legislation need to be implemented fully. The truth about wrongdoing by British military, intelligence and policing agencies needs to be uncovered and acknowledged. Sinn Féin supports the demands for this from the families of victims. The PSNI needs to make strenuous efforts to earn the trust and confidence of nationalists and republicans. Gardaí corruption and malpractice – which has been exposed in the Morris Tribunal and the Abbeylara inquiry in the 26 counties – shows the need for constant vigilance and oversight. These inquiries and the ill-treatment of republicans by the Garda Special Branch also provide compelling reasons as to why the responsibility of political parties and representatives should be to hold the police to account in a fair and publicly transparent way.

This Ard Fheis is totally opposed to political, sectarian and repressive policing. The experience of nationalists and republicans in the Six Counties is of a partisan, unionist militia which engaged in harassment, torture, assassination, shoot-to-kill and collusion with death squads.

The Good Friday Agreement requires and defines ‘a new beginning to policing’ as an essential element of the peace process. The Good Friday Agreement also requires functioning, powersharing and all-Ireland political institutions.

The British Government have agreed to the transfer of powers on policing and justice away from Westminster to locally-elected political institutions and have set out the departmental model to which these powers will be transferred. In these circumstances authority over policing and justice will lie in Ireland.

We note the British Government’s new policy statement of 10 January 2007 which removes MI5 from policing structures in Ireland. This removes the proposals to embed MI5 into civic policing and removes the danger of again creating a force within a force.

We note also the commitment by PSNI Chief Constable Hugh Orde that plastic bullets will not be used for purposes of public order/crowd control and his acknowledgement of the hurt resulting from injuries and death of innocent people including children.

These weapons should never be used again. Sinn Féin will continue to campaign for a total ban.

This Ard Fheis notes the refusal of the DUP leader Ian Paisley to publicly commit to power-sharing and participation in the all-Ireland political institutions by 26 March 2007.

Before the Ard Chomhairle meeting on 29 December the DUP had agreed words which they would release in response to the Ard Chomhairle accepting the policing motion put by the Party President. We note the DUP’s failure to keep to this commitment.

It is clear that elements of the DUP are determined to use policing and other issues to prevent progress, resist powersharing and equality and oppose any all-Ireland development. This is unacceptable.

It is the responsibility of the two Governments and pro-Agreement parties across the island to resist this and to ensure the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement.

Sinn Fein is committed to justice. Sinn Fein is committed to law and order and to stable and inclusive partnership government, and, in good faith and in a spirit of genuine partnership,  to the full operation of stable power-sharing government and the north south and east west arrangements set out in the Good Friday Agreement.

The responsibility of the police is to defend and uphold the rights of citizens. In order to fulfil this role they require critical support.

Sinn Féin reiterates our support for An Garda Síochána and commits fully to:

•	Support for the PSNI and the criminal justice system.

•	Hold the police and criminal justice systems north and south fully to account, both democratically and legally, on the basis of fairness and impartiality and objectivity.

•	Authorise our elected representatives to participate in local policing structures in the interests of justice, the quality of life for the community and to secure policing with the community as the core function of the PSNI and actively encouraging everyone in the community to co-operate fully with the police services in tackling crime in all areas and actively supporting all the criminal justice institutions.

•	The devolution of policing and justice to the Assembly.

•	Equality and human rights at the heart of the new dispensation and to pursue a shared future in which the culture, rights and aspirations of all are respected and valued, free from sectarianism,  racism and intolerance.

To achieve this the Ard Chomhairle is hereby mandated to:

•	Appoint Sinn Féin representatives to the Policing Board and the District Policing Partnership Boards to ensure that: -	a civic policing service, accountable and representative of the community  is delivered as quickly as possible, -	the Chief Constable and the PSNI are publicly held to account, -	policing with the community is achieved as the core function of the PSNI, -	political policing, collusion and “the force within a force” is a thing of the past and to oppose any involvement by the British Security Service/MI5 in civic policing.

•	Ensure Sinn Fein representatives robustly support the demands for: -	equality of treatment for all victims and survivors, -	effective truth recovery mechanisms, -	acknowledgement by the British State of its involvement in wrongdoing including collusion with loyalist paramilitaries, -	to ensure that there is no place in the PSNI for those guilty of human rights abuses,

•	Resolutely oppose the use of lethal weapons in public order situations

•	Authorise Sinn Féin Ministers to take the ministerial Pledge of Office.

•	Achieve accountable all-Ireland policing structures.

The Ard Chomhairle recommends:

That this Ard Fheis endorses the Ard Chomhairle motion. That the Ard Chomhairle is mandated to implement this motion only when the power-sharing institutions are established and when the Ard Chomhairle is satisfied that the policing and justice powers will be transferred. Or if this does not happen within the St Andrews timeframe, only when acceptable new partnership arrangements to implement the Good Friday Agreement are in place.''

Nothing controversal about a democratic party having dissagrements it happens all the time and would be worse if it didn't.BigDunc 13:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, big man.
 * Nice, concise motion, eh?
 * It'll take me at least a week (I have to make a trip) to digest all that and see if it's susceptible of summary without a substantial ambiguity. Meanwhile, do you have a source I can look at (preferably on-line)?  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by W. Frank (talk • contribs).

Ill see if I can find one for you. BigDunc 14:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

There you go Frank[]BigDunc 14:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

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Notability
Hi, I have an interest in Irish Youth Politics (specifically republican and unionist) and have added some stuff to this article. I have a copy of the OSF Revolutionary Handbook at home which describes structures and the OSF constitution. I hope that is an okay source for this article. There is no online copy of the book but if anybody needs to check for verifiability I can send you a scan of the section you require. I also included some notable incidents which I feel lets you get a feel for the organisation, I think this would be a welcome edition to the other youth groups in NI as well.

(PS I removed the tag asking for more sources as I added quite a few) :) --Baldeadly (talk) 03:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Also why is my name red?? --Baldeadly (talk) 13:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Major cleanup required
This page is a mess, most of the sources are either from ÓSF, an phoblacht or indymedia, which are hardly neutral. I suggest a major cleanup involving removing all information that doesn't have neutral sources. Thoughts? Féasógach (talk) 11:56, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Could you point out some points which you believe to be untrue.--Baldeadly (talk) 22:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't think I mentioned anything about believing any aspect to be untrue.. I don't think ÓSF, an phoblacht or indymedia satisfy WP:Sources, what do you think?Féasógach (talk) 21:14, 18 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Support Féasógach as unreliable or biased sources are not allowed per WP:BLP and WP:SOURCE. Also, why rv Mairia Cahill? She was a member of SFRY, no? Are we whitewashing here? Reporting a validly or well-sourced accusation or allegation is not the same as supporting or confirming it. Quis separabit?  16:30, 23 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Restored that part. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:02, 27 February 2015 (UTC)


 * The continued removal of Mairia Cahill is bs and needs to stop. Quis separabit?  21:05, 11 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Possibly we should look for page protection? Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:55, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


 * People are deliberately putting in links that with sources that nowhere state that Cahill was an organiser, the ref remaining is the only one source that states she was but that was a piece by Eilis O Hanlon in the Sunday Independent (notoriously anti-SF). Are there any reliable sources other than a politically compromised journalist's opinion? Tyrsóg (talk) 19:47, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I also expanded on the Cahill section and included reliable sources to include both sides for the sake of balance, I agree with the blog removal, I wrongly assumed at first glance it wasn't, I instead added a news source with a statement from the person's solictors. Should not be a problem now. Tyrsóg (talk) 21:56, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The links are not there to assert that Cahill was a member, they are there to establish her notability. The Irish Independent and Sunday Independent are major national newspapers and are most definitely reliable sources. Please stop removing references. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:48, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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Requested move 18 August 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved as requested. Dekimasu よ! 00:31, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Sinn Féin Republican Youth → Ógra Shinn Féin – The organisation has chaned its name. This can also be seen on its offical website and all its official social media pages. Search engine results for Sinn Féin Republican Youth also redirect to Ógra Shinn Féin and media reports from April 2018 to present refer to it as Ógra Shinn Féin.

Helper201 (talk) 18:47, 18 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Sinn Féin Republican Youth → Ógra Shinn Féin – Changed its name. Source provided in the introduction. Helper201 (talk) 17:58, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:12, 18 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The provided source is not reliable. Both titles appear to have been used at various points, I gather that this isn't the first time the organisation changed its name. I suggest an RM in case people disagree with the move. &mdash; Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 18:11, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The source as per its about page is a "is an award-winning independent media website". It can also clearly be seen on the organisation's official website and all its social media pages to be called Ógra Shinn Féin. It has changed its name before but this is its first name change in approximately six years. I have also provided more sources at the bottom of the articles talk page. Helper201 (talk) 18:29, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * See here Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:16, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks for that. To clarify my position, I am neutral. &mdash; Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 21:20, 18 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Ideology section necessary?
Looking at Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael's youth organisations Wikipage's, they lack an ideology section. Ógra Shinn Féin's ideology is apparently the same as the mother party, so is there a need to have an ideology section at all? In fact I argue it makes more sense for Young Fine Gael to have an ideology section than Ógra Shinn Féin as it is autonomous and allowed to form its own policies and objectives. We should remove Ogra Shinn Féin's ideology section to make it more in line with the aforementioned parties. If it is decided yes, then I also believe it should be reflected on the An Phoblacht Wikipage. Thoughts? B. M. L. Peters (talk) 23:15, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't see an ideology section. Do you mean the ideology field in the infobox? I think that's useful and harmless, it's justOa couple of lines. MarioGom (talk) 18:59, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes! Ideology field in the infobox. It is harmless, but I'd recommend removing it to keep the youth org in the same standing as other Irish political parties youth orgs (Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and Labour. Greens have a ideology field but it is based on the youth parties different internal policies from the mother party so proves necessary. It might be worth adding a ideology field to the youth Fine Gael infobox as it is autonomous from the mother party, and allowed to form it's own objectives and ideologies as well. But for Ógra Shinn Féin, is it really necessary since the youth party and mother party have the same ideology? I suggest removing it simply to set it on equal footing as the other main parties in the country, minus the Greens, and possibly in the future Fine Gael. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 21:41, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
 * You could add the ideology field to other articles. It is informative and helps the reader identifying the ideology without going to a related article. This is a common practice with many youth wings of political parties: Australian Young Greens, Socialist Youth Austria, Civil Forum, Movement of Young Socialists, Dimitrov Communist Youth Union... In most cases, the field is the same as the mother party, while in some rare cases it is different. MarioGom (talk) 07:32, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah I think that might be the best way going forward. I'll do some research, develope + source ideology fields for the remaining named parties! B. M. L. Peters (talk) 21:48, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello again, just bringing it back one more time! I am proposing a change, the ideology of the youth party is different from the mother party according to Ogra's website. Where we have listed "Irish republicanism", "Democratic socialism", and "Left-wing nationalism", I would change to what Ogra's website states about themselves, "5 key 'principles": Republicanism, Socialism, Feminism, Environmentalism, and Internationalism. Would it be proper to replace previously listed ideologies with what they state about themself? I am assuming there current ideology was dragged over from the mother parties page.

Source: https://republicanyouth.org/education B. M. L. Peters (talk) 02:51, 25 April 2021 (UTC)