Talk:Ötzi/Archive 1

Discovery
To determine the real founder of Ötzi, either it was Magdalena Mohar Jarc as she was presented on our local news or Helmut Simon, which now is deceased and his wife applies for a fee. Magdalena Mohar Jarc entered the trial, when she noticed that Simon's wife requires the fee, and that they haven't mentioned her as a founder of the corpse. She will also be presented on the trial, together with Reinhold Messner as a witness about her discovery. Prunk 10:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

References:


 * An interview with Magdalena Mohar Jarc in our TV documentary on Slovenian TV
 * discovery link

Weather
The speculation that Ötzi was killed by a storm has been removed. I am not sure whether there was a good reason to do this, or if it was due to vandalism. I am reverting, until some evidence is presented. patrickw 11:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Name
Ötzi seems like a perfectly natural nickname based on "Ötztal". I found no evidence from the internet that the nickname was coined with reference to "yeti". So I am removing that assertion from the first paragraph. Phoogenb 20:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Tattoos
Can someone give some more details about the nature of the 57 (?) tattoos on this body? Are there really 57? It would be nice to have a reference to this. patrickw 16:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * here is one link i found: http://www.tattoo.dk/engelske/tattoo-history/ancient/e-iceman.htm patrickw 13:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Konrad Spindler became famous for first examining the 5,300 year old mummy in Austria. He said: "We know of 57 tattoos on the body of the Iceman. And we know from primitive peoples that tattoos are not just used as adornment or insignia, but also for therapy. ...", in: --Dietmar 21:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This strikes me as idle speculation. What is the evidence that Ötzi had tattoos for this reason? Lot's of tribal groups have tattoos for non theraputic reasons. It's indicating all the possible reasons he might have had tattoos. Perhaps each line and dot represented a kill or number of goats he had or were simply there for adornment. patrickw 11:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The evidence that Ötzi had tattoos for this reason: innumerable sources. The tattoos could well be blueprints for acupuncture procedures. See also:, , , and  --Dietmar 19:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Has anyone done a similar analysis of tattoos from tribal cultures who place tattoos for non-acuputure reasons (e.g., Maoris?). I suspect some of the places these tattoos coincidentally coincide with acupuncture points as well. In anycase there are lots of other reasons that these tattoos could be there. patrickw 13:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

DNA condition
What is the state of the man's DNA? Can his DNA be compared to modern humans to gauge genetic drift over 5000 years? Can his mitochondria be compared to modern humans to test the Mitochondrial Eve conclusions? Could Ötzi be cloned? --WpZurp 15:05, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It seems very improbable to me that the DNA could be in good enough condition for cloning, but it might be good enough for mitochondrial testing ... that would be an interesting test. Nik42 02:18, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * His mtDNA has indeed been analyzed: with mutations at 16224C and 16311C, he belonged to haplogroup K. - Nunh-huh 1 July 2005 12:20 (UTC)


 * Interesting you should bring up DNA--I don't know about studies on Ötzi himself, but the DNA of the meat in his intestines was actually analyzed to determine the species it originated from! Also, some analysis must be possible, if they were able to recognize the blood of four other people on Ötzi and his posessions.  However, I doubt cloning technology is anywhere NEAR the level needed to clone him!

Modern corpse
"The body was at first thought to be a modern corpse, like several others which had been recently found in the region." -- And those others, were they mummies as well, or simply unfortunate hikers who died accidentally? --Menchi 18:39, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Other bodies have been found nearby, soldiers from a battle late in WW1. 152.91.9.115 04:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Picture
Is the reason there is no picture of Ötzi because the external links cover it or because of copyright? Usually, if there is a picture of someone or something famous, Wikipedia has a picture. Just curious. --User:FeanorStar7


 * Yeah a picture would be nice. patrickw 16:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Age of Otzi
Material in the museum in Bolzano-Bozen puts his estimated age at 40 to 53 ...


 * Fixed. Jorge Stolfi 00:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

What?
We're not going to even mention the "Ötzi was gay" scam/rumor? Clearly it should be characterized correctly, but I can't imagine it should be ignored... --Baylink 23:00, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I have to concur. This was actually the first thing I thought of when I came across this article - the fact that this rumor has penetrated (forgive the word choice) so far into popular culture should merit a mention. 68.104.201.53 21:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I can't see a reason not to put atleast a short note about this. Even if it's just a rumour, it should be mentioned as such. Any good reasons not to mention this? Pranab 23:39, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

````The Reports that Otzi was found with sperm in his anal cavity are entirley untrue as otzis anus and genitals were not recovered. it is speculated they were eaten by scavengers some time after he died. However maybe it should be mentioned so that we can but a stop to these wild allegations.

Shooting with an unfinished bow
How could he shoot someone with an unfinished bow ? Edit: I read an article in german Geo magazine from 10/2004 and there isnt anything mentioned about him shooting someone with his bow. They also say the bow was unfinished. I will delete this part: "The fight lasted about a day or two, during which time Ötzi killed at least two enemies with his bow, and recovered the arrow each time." --Anon


 * A day or two??? That's a fairly long skirmish anyway, for 3 warriors to undertake. This also suggests out that he was fighting, killing food and returning to fight. I think this is an accurate view -- Philipwhiuk 20:42, 23 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I have restored that sentence because (1) the paragraph is about Thomas Loy's theory, and that is what he said, according to an internet page (it should have been listed in the "External links" section, I will check that); and (2) it is hard to imagine someone setting out for a hunt with a quiver full of arrows but without a working bow. So it is quite possible that he lost his bow during the fight, and was trying to make a new one when he died. All the best, Jorge Stolfi 22:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Hair isotope analysis, vegetarian, sea foods
The following paragraph needs some attention:
 * Isotope analyses from his hair collagen indicated either Ötzi had been a lifelong vegetarian (unlikely, considering his last meal and attire), or had obtained most of his protein from sea foods (unlikely as well, considering the places he had lived in according to the teeth enamel analyses).

All the best, Jorge Stolfi 02:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Who did those analyses?
 * 2) What exactly were the conclusions? Presumably "mammal meat must have been a small part of his diet"? What about fowl, eggs?
 * 3) Does "sea foods" include freshwater fish? (!)
 * 4) Would fish be available at Ötzi's home town?


 * I agree the statement about isotopic analysis needs to be fixed. patrickw 16:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

axehead composition
I'm going to remove the parenthetical "(actually an arsenical bronze)" from the sentence "Other items found with the Iceman were a copper axe with a yew handle". I can't find a solid reference confirming it was "bronze"; most authoritative accounts have it as "almost pure copper". The fact that it had traces of arsenic in it was, I think, most likely due to natural impurities, not a deliberate attempt by its maker to use an alloy. Furthermore, we've got Ötzi listed as being Chalcolithic (or copper/stone age), not bronze age. —Steve Summit (talk) 17:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Other theories
"One of the most fanciful theories was that he was in fact an Egyptian who had been ritually castrated. Later examination, however, revealed that, though shrunken by the mummification, Ötzi did in fact possess a penis." --The presence of a penis does not address the issue of castration. Dogosaurus 09:33, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I seem to recall reading that he had a complete set of genitals a long time ago when this was news, but I don't know if I can find a reference at the moment. That was the wording present when I first discovered this page, though. - Rainwarrior 19:29, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

In this articles it says the 'iceman' is in the Italian bounderies and from what I heard from my teacher is different, she says its in the Austrian border and she also mentioned that the Austrians gave the Italians quite along time to research on it. Can some one tell me the correct statement.


 * The iceman was in the Austrian border in 1997. But subsequent surveys showed that the body had been located 92,55 meters inside Italian territory, see also . It is now on display at the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Bozen-Bolzano, Italy, since 16 January 1998, see also: This is the correct statement. -- Dietmar 21:20, 8 August 2006

Clothes And Shoes section
Section says his clothing included "a woven dirt cape."

Woven dirt? Is this a joke?

Septegram 15:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This was vandalism. There were several other changes made by the same user. I have reverted all of them. patrickw 16:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Two Knives
The article lists a knife twice among the tools found on the body. Is this the same knife accidentally listed twice due to sloppy editing, or where there two different knives found? --68.102.156.139 04:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)