Talk:Český Těšín/Archive 1

NPOV?
Dear Darwinek, this article was subjective and without eferences. I only added references and deleted some non-proven statements. If you vandalise it, I must request for protection.
 * Yopie, your edits are huge pro Czech POV. First, you are citing really bad book about Czech history, and second there wasn't so much people "in the area" as you pointed it out. Majority were Polish with notable and fairly sizeable German and Czech communities, not to mention lively Jewish community which you do not even mention. There are plenty of documents about situation in Zaolzie in archives. Article about ČT is NPOV now, vandals like you are trying to rewrite history and confuse readers. -- Darwinek 19:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Dear Darwinek, I agre with you, that article violates NPOV, because is subjective pro -Polish. I added citation from book from Oxford Press and WHO ARE YOU, that you think, that this book is "really bad"? Why? you mentioned some obscure "archive", please, enligt it and cite it. You are vandal, because you made statements without citing of sources. By mi opinion, I only added citation from notable book about demography and secondly, I deleted unproven statement about reasons of military operations. Thats all. -- Yopie
 * Where are you from, man? You can find many documents about it in local (Cieszyn Silesia and Těšín Silesia) archives, both Czech and Polish. Statements in that "oxford" book are false, there were much more Germans here, more Poles and less Czechs. It not even mention Jews! Erik Goldstein's book (which is cited here) tells about Polish majority here, that's why the Polish Army annexed this territory, most of the people were Poles, deal with it! Also author of that "oxford-crappy-simplyfying book" tells about Zaolzie "area", so I don't know why you added it to Český Těšín article. There is nothing pro Polish in this article, "liberation" would be pro Polish, there is an "annexation" term here etc. This is perfectly npov article. Btw. I am Czech but hate that nationalist pov-pushers like you. Also I am resident of this city so I know history of our city better (I also study it on college) than some woman from England who is writing about Czechoslovakia in general. -- Darwinek 20:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Two points, without going to much into the merithorical dispute:  // Halibutt 20:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Firstly, this article could only benefit from more sources. Adding one sources and stating arbitrarily that it's the whole truth is not yet NPOV, whatever source it is
 * 2) Secondly, I started the article on History of Cieszyn and Těšín specifically to avoid one-sided versions of history of the region in respective articles. Why not refer the readers there and work more on that article instead?

Ahoj :) In 1938 were in area so as this book says (p. 312):
 * 132.000 Czechs,
 * 70.000 Poles and
 * 20.000 Germans'',
 * According to the 1930 census, the area of the Zaolzie was populated by 227,339 inhabitants out of whom
 * 56% were Czech-speakers,
 * 35% Polish-speakers, and
 * 8% German-speakers
 * (Zahradnik, 1992:8).

According to the not wholly reliable Polish official sources the number of the Czech-speakers in this region plummeted to mere 10,000, and the German-speakers to 8,000 in 1939, whereas the number of Polish-speakers sky-rocketed to 212,500, i.e. 93% of the total population of the Zaolzie (Komar, 1939:14, 16-19).'' (sic! ;) - so according to Czech more reliable census:
 * ~127.000 where Czech-speaking,
 * ~79.500 where Polish-speaking and
 * ~18.000 German-speaking.

This site (pl-lang) claims that:
 *  Liczył on 870 km kw. i według oficjalnych danych czeskich z 1938 roku spoóród 223 tysięcy jego mieszkańców 76 tysięcy zadeklarowało narodowość polską (34%). W 1920 roku mieszkało tu od 100 do 150 tysięcy Polaków (miejscowych i robotników napływowych). Strona polska utrzymywała, że na terenach włączonych do RP Polacy stanowili 70% ludności. Władze polskie na Zaolziu rozpoczęły gwałtowną polonizację: zamknęły szkoły czeskie, zdelegalizowały czeskie partie i stowarzyszenia, konfiskując ich majątek, Czechów usuwano z pracy i deportowano masowo osoby uznane za « element obcy ». W sumie Zaolzie opuściło lub zostało wygnanych 38 tys. Czechów.

which means that in 1938' among 223.000 inhabitants were however in 1920 number of Poles were between 100.000 to 150.000 (most of sources say 140.000), many of them were "rebohemized" cause among Czechs politics was very popular term "polonized Moravians" which treated Polish-speaking community as a Polish-speaking Moravians (polonized in the past). When Poland took it in 1938 they started the same politic to Czechs as Czechs did to Poles in the past, deported 38 thousand Czechs as "aliens". If you let me return to the 1920 year, the book I mentioned at the beginning says (p. 308):
 * 76.000 self-declared Poles (34%),
 * Without taking into consideration the opinion of the German-speakers, the Conference of Ambassadors divided East Silesia on July 28, 1929, and the Interallied Commission left on August 6 having transferred sovereignty over the two parts to Czechoslovakia and Poland, respectively. Poland received 1,009 sq km (the political county of Bielitz, and part of the political county of Teschen with almost all of the town), and Czechoslovakia 1,273 sq km which included the whole of the Ostrau-Karwin industrial basin and the strategic railway link connecting Slovakia with Moravia and Bohemia.
 * According to the 1910 census the Polish section's population of 139,600 was constituted by
 * Polish-speakers (61.1%),
 * German-speakers (31.3%) and
 * Czech-speakers (1.4%),
 * whereas the Czechoslovak section's population of 295,200 was made up of
 * Polish-speakers (48.6%),
 * Czech-speakers (39.9%) and
 * German-speakers (11.3%).

and further there are some interesting sentences about sympathizations ;) D_T_ G ( P  L ) 21:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Hello DTG, I know that it is not customary to edit other people's contributions, but I took the liberty of reformating your contribution, in the hope that the numbers will be now better readable. I hope you don't mind. Otherwise just revert me. --Austrian 22:46, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, now looks better ;) D_T_ G ( P  L ) 09:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

"Czechoslovakia and Red´s as allies in 1920" is nonsense. Czechs are in war with Soviets in Siberia and Hungary. See articles "Czechoslovak Legions", "Aleksandr Kolchak" and "Hungarian Soviet Republic". Pretty "allies", huh ...--Yopie 14:04, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear Hallibutt, please explain, why you think, that in 1920 were Czechoslovakia and Soviets allies? If you know history, you must know, that in 1920 Czechoslovakia was in war with Hungary (Soviet ally) and with red Russia itself (in Siberia). Please, see articles up. --Yopie 14:04, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Czechoslovakia was not in war against the Reds. One of their units fought against the reds in the civil war for some time, but it was hardly a state of war. Especially that during their retreat they changed sides at least once (which, BTW, resulted in almost complete destruction of the Polish 5th Rifles Division). As to the alliance - the states were indeed not allied, at least not formally. However, their cooperation against Poland was quite strong. The winter offensive in Zaolzie anyone? Embargo on arms transports to Poland..? All was there.
 * Anyway, that's precisely what the source you remove says, the problem is it was translated to English wrongly. I'll fix that, no need to remove a perfect source.  // Halibutt 14:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Religion
I have expanded the article with info about the religion and places of worship in the town. Several sections still need to be written, especially Transport, Culture, Economy and Sport. - Darwinek (talk) 14:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

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