Talk:Łyna (river)

Article title
Are there any sources stating that the contemporary English name for the river is the "Alle"? Olessi 23:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The authoritative National Geographic's Map Machine shows the river as Łyna in Poland and Lava in Russia (Google Maps uses Łyna as well).  The name Alle is not used at all.  Of these two possible names, since most of the river is in Poland, using the Polish name for article title makes the most sense.


 * Given this, I am moving the article back. Next time, it would be best to provide references and then propose the move on talk page, instead of moving articles unilaterally. Balcer 02:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Google Search:
 * Alle:1,340,000,000
 * "Alle":1,340,000,000
 * Alle River:2,300,000
 * Alle (River):2,300,000
 * "Alle River":710
 * Lyna:246,000
 * "Lyna":246,000
 * Lyna River:22,700
 * Lyna (River):22,700
 * "Lyna River":602
 * Łyna:360,000
 * "Łyna":115,000
 * Łyna River:26,100
 * Łyna (River):26,100
 * "Łyna River":716

Google Search:(Verison two)
 * Alle:1,340,000,000
 * "Alle":1,340,000,000
 * Alle River:2,300,000
 * Alle (River):2,300,000
 * Łyna:360,000
 * Lyna:246,000
 * "Lyna":246,000
 * "Łyna":115,000
 * Łyna River:26,100
 * Łyna (River):26,100
 * Lyna River:22,700
 * Lyna (River):22,700
 * "Łyna River":716
 * "Alle River":710
 * "Lyna River":602

- Yahoo Search:
 * Alle:655,000,000
 * "Alle":663,000,000
 * Alle River:4,070,000
 * Alle (River):4,070,000
 * "Alle River":134
 * Lyna:141,000
 * "Lyna":142,000
 * Lyna River:3,200
 * Lyna (River):3,200
 * "Lyna River":128
 * Łyna:98,300
 * "Łyna":98,800
 * Łyna River:197
 * Łyna (River):198
 * "Łyna River":101

Yahoo Search:(Verison two)
 * Alle:655,000,000
 * "Alle":663,000,000
 * Alle River:4,070,000
 * Alle (River):4,070,000
 * "Alle River":134
 * Lyna:141,000
 * "Lyna":142,000
 * Łyna:98,300
 * "Łyna":98,800
 * Lyna River:3,200
 * Lyna (River):3,200
 * Łyna River:197
 * Łyna (River):198
 * "Lyna River":128
 * "Łyna River":101

-- Hrödberäht (gespräch) 03:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Surely this is a joke. "Alle" simply means "everything" in German and is a very common word.  Obviously if you do a Google search for it, you will get millions of hits, which of course is completely irrelevant to deciding what the name for this river is.  Searching for Alle and river is meaningless as well, as that just returns pages which mention the two words somewhere on the page, but not necessarily together.  Given that both words are in wide use, there will be plenty of pages where they are both mentioned.  Same problems arise when you search for Lyna, which is just a four letter combination that will prop up in various ways all over the place (try typing any four-letter combintation into Google and you will get thousands of hits). The only results above which make any sense are probably those for "Łyna River" and "Alle River", and these return about the same number of hits, so they certainly don't settle the issue at hand.


 * So, what we need here is a solid, geographical reference which demonstrates that Alle is the name used in English, given that search engines return results which are very difficult to interpret. I have provided two such references.  I will give you a chance to provide yours before I move the article back. Balcer 03:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The aforementioned Google and Yahoo search variations are a waste of time; non-specific phrase searches bring up a multitude of irrelevant links; how many of the links for 'Alle + River' are referencing this river?

Here are English language searches specifying river in the phrase.
 * "Alle River"
 * "River Alle"
 * "Lyna River"
 * "River Lyna"
 * "Łyna River"
 * "River Łyna"

What is more relevant are searches for publications. Google Books:
 * "Alle River"
 * "River Alle"
 * "Lyna River"
 * "River Lyna"
 * "Łyna River"
 * "River Łyna"

Google Scholar:
 * "Alle River"
 * "River Alle"
 * Lyna River"
 * "River Lyna"
 * "Łyna River"
 * "River Łyna"

An actual examination of the links indicates that practically all references to the Alle in English refer to when Prussia controlled the region, especially during the Napoleonic Wars. "Alle" is not used to refer to the river today, it is only used in historical contexts (pre-1945). For contemporary usage, Britannica uses Lyna River, while Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary uses Lava as the primary entry. A move such as this, as well as the rampant changing of redirects and articles linking here, should have been discussed first and proposed through WP:RM. Olessi 04:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hammond's Citation World Atlas (1998) uses Łyna. Olessi 04:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)