Talk:Świnoujście

Old stuff (section heading added 5/23/2012)
Wik. The German name of Swinemünde is Swinemünde. It is not a "former" name.

S´winoujs´cie: German pages: 5

Swinemünde: German pages: 13,300

Furthermore, the English name also seems to be Swinemünde

S´winoujs´cie: English pages: 5

Swinemünde: English pages: 766

766-5 - you love ratios like that, huh? ;-)

-- Nico 17:46, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Real figures: Swinoujscie 34,600 Swinemünde 15,000

--Wik 18:12, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

Ah, but Swinoujscie is certainly not the same name as S´winoujs´cie. Similarly is not Swinemunde the same name as Swinemünde. Nico 19:04, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

City population
source: Rocznik Statystyczny 1981, G&#322;ówny Urz&#261;d Statystyczny, Warszawa 1981, Rok XLI 1960: 17.000 inbabitants 1970: 28.100 inbabitants 1975: 42.400 inbabitants 1980: 47.100 inbabitants

cc

Link extinguished
20.06.07 Who has extinguished my link? Pan Lugowski?

Erwin Rosenthal

21.06.07 Who has extinguished my link? Pan Lugowski? Erwin Rosenthal

Conflict
If the place is currently in Poland, it seems reasonable that the Polish name should be listed first. If it was formerly part of Germany, the German name should be mentioned, but not first. Does anyone disagree, and if so why? Wondering simply, -- Infrogmation 19:47, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * I merely shifted them because known vandal User:Wik insists on adding 'former'. No problems with the current state. Jor 19:49, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * What is wrong with calling the German name 'German name'? A clarifier like 'former' or 'historic' is wrong, since it is still the name in German (and in most English texts). Jor 19:51, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * No, it isn't. I posted the real figures above. --Wik 19:52, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * Take out the POLISH LANGUAGE results, and you end up with Nico's figures. Rather a difference, wouldn't you say? Call it whatever you like in the Polish Wikipedia, but stop trying to falsify history. Jor 19:54, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Nico's search on the Polish name doesn't prove anything, due to its use of spacing accents, which hardly pick up anything. I assume this is an oversight. If i search in .uk I get 33 for Swinemünde, 21 for Swinemunde, 4 for Swinemuende, and 268 for Swinoujscie. This demonstrates that the latter term is more used in UK web pages. You can see I have no agenda here - I was even involved in the move war to get Oder-Neisse line where it is now. Morwen 19:59, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm not accusing you of an agenda, fwiw. Jor

Google.com figures: Jor 20:07, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * Swinemünde OR Swinemunde in English pages: 1340
 * &#346;winouj&#347;cie in English pages: 1,260


 * Why do you omit Swinoujscie in English pages? Which is 9,810. Again, this must be another oversight.  Morwen 20:08, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)
 * It is. I also left out various variant spellings of the German/English name, this is a simple search for the main names. Jor 20:09, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Why is 'Swinemunde' considered a main name, then, and not just a variant? I'm not sure this is being very consistent.  The most frequently used name in English is Swinoujscie, which has nearly ten times as many hits in google as Swinemünde/Swinemunde.  Even the form with the accents has as many hits as the German form, in English texts.  I propose the wording '&#346;winouj&#347;cie, formerly Swinemünde.'  As you say, what the German name is, is irrelevant on the English wikipedia. Morwen 20:14, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * ASCII does not include a ü character. Much software silently drops umlauts, or converts them to e (which I did not search for). What is so wrong with the current form? Wik's revertionism implies there is some reason Swinemünde as a name is not acceptable, which I have yet to see him defend? Jor 20:17, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * ASCII doesn't contain a &#346; character, either.  I have nothing particular against the article in either of the states you are edit warring about.  I am just trying to suggest compromises that might be acceptable to both sides?  Since there seems to be little interest in this idea, I think I will go back to making maps of Libya.   Morwen 20:21, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * If you can get Wik to accept a form without 'former', 'historic', 'ancient', 'fictional' or whatever else he wants to prefix the other name with, there is no more 'edit war'. I'd welcome a contribution by Wik to this article for once, instead of a revert or deletion.

I see Wik reverted yet again while I am typing this, I'm tired of it. Screw this, I've better things to do than try and fix Wik's vandalism. Jor 20:25, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * I see Cartman's going home. And by the way, of course ASCII contains an ü character, otherwise you couldn't display it here without the &# code, which is required for &#346; though. --Wik 20:34, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * Sorry, ü is not in ASCII, which contains only characters 32 to 126. It is in ISO 8859-1 though, which is why we can use it.  Morwen 20:37, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * That's extended ASCII. --Wik 20:42, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * In either case it is certain that Swinemünde as a name is still in use, and this 'historic' of 'former' is not wanted. I left out German, Dutch, etc. results from this search, as this is the ENGLISH wikipedia. Jor 20:09, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree with Morwen. The current English name seems to be Swinoujscie. However, the German name is surely Swinemünde, and it's not a "former German" name. Nico 08:53, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

what we are taking about Swinoujscie, is a polnish fantasy name, founded 1945 after the complete ethnical cleansing of the whole city by polnish forces. Using of such ahistorical names is suporting of ethnical cleansing. --Klastori 20:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No, my German friend, contrary to countless other names indeed either invented or "repolonised" after the war, this one has been in use at least since middle ages. In fact it's the other way around, all towns in the area still have Slavic names, some of them Germanised. In Polish these are meaningful toponyms, in German they are not (just tell me what Misdroy means...). Anyway, the name was not invented by anyone in 1945.


 * Also, it appears that you might want to read up more on who owned the town during the later stages of the war and afterwards - and who expelled the local Germans... AFAIR it was not until 1948 that the Red Army finally passed it to Poland...  // Halibutt 21:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

sorry you mixing up west-slavic and polnish origin. the most west slavic tribes around the year 1000 were not polnish or just conquered by them, for a very short time. the polnish claim on these area is a very bad historic joke. Its like the the british would claim the french britany area or the french calais area because around the year 1000 some britsh tribes were hunting in the bushes there. another example the germans could claim for the same reason the polnish area around Lodz because the germanic vandal tribes were jumping around there in the year 600. Sorry the polish claims are ahistoric and radical nationalistic. I think they have something common, with the nazi idea of General plan east. Its the dehumanisation and the rasscisem. These ill ideas should support the idea ethnical cleansing is ok, with the right historical justification. Its not!!!! --Klastori 08:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not even mentioning politics here, I'm merely pointing to the linguistic aspect. And explaining to you that the name was not invented after 1945, contrary to what you suggest.  // Halibutt 12:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

as far as i know there were no poles living in that area and this area was not under a somehow polnish adminstration in the last at least 900 years. on all old maps of europe that i know its named swinemuende before 1945. english maps were not using polnish exonyms usally.--Klastori 13:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * And what does it have to do with your claim that the name was invented after 1945?  // Halibutt 14:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Well because this name was not existing before 1945 its a polnish translation of of the origional name. but in the english speaking world predominantly the origional name is used in its english version Swinemuende which is also better to spell in english. I have the strong impresssion that some poles in wikipedia want to introduce these new polnish names for citys in former ethnical and political german areas. The reason behind that might be to cover the fact that the origional population of this these areas were victims of brutal ethnical cleansing by polnish forces. that the mayority of the today inhabitants in these areas live on stolen property. Houses that they have not payed for. Old furniture stolen from thier former legal owners fit well in many polnish living roomes in these areas. Nobody has been punished for these polnish warcrimes till today. No financial compensations for the stolen property have been payed to the 12 million former german inhabitants. I think that many poles have a bad feeling dicussing these issues because they know these true facts. So some poles here in wikipedia try to cover up these facts by intoducing polnish names for citys in these area. The idea behind that might be that if somebody is reading a polnish placename like swinmousice, nobody will raise question about the bloody history of these areas and the dark sides of polnish history. the polnish people were not allways the victims of history they were also prepetraters of brutal warcrimes on germans, ukrainians, lithuanians and others. sorry but that has to be sayed, because these singele sided views jumping on my nervs. --Klastori 16:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

external link situation
Given disagreement over the presence of unofficial website links, in particular Prof. Erwin Rosenthal anonymous re-addition of his website, I asked on Village pump (assistance), suggesting that per WP:EL, we link to the official website only, and to the DMOZ category for Swinoujscie, what with Profesor's website already listed there in the German and Polish language versions (he can always ask them to add it to the English version, as well). One of the suggestions given was to seek consensus here.

My position is that Prof. Rosenthal is strictly using Wikipedia to promote his website, having expressly refused, when asked, to permit adding content to wikipedia based on and attributing his website in references (see pl:Dyskusja:Świnoujście). His adding his website is also a conflict of interest under WP:EL. WP:EL suggests that in conflict situations, linking to an appropriate DMOZ category be considered instead. I would like to see Prof. Rosenthal edit on Wikipedia, or at least cooperate with Wikipedians in expanding articles. Then, a reference to his website would be both appropriate and warranted by Wikipedia content. Furthermore, I think it is inappropriate to allow an individual to force an external link to his own website, especially when he is unwilling to expand the Wikipedia article. This particular article is a magnet for commercial links (particularly those promoting tourism), and it would seem appropriate to make a principled stand in order to prevent spam link creep.

Thoughts? --Mareklug talk 15:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree, the amount of links should be keep to official websites to discourage spamming, common with cities.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Expanded on revenge by victims of German state
Also double naming.--Molobo (talk) 22:09, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I restored information about the fact that victims of Nazi Germany took revenge on Germans and all were sentenced as result, please don't delete it.--Molobo (talk) 11:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Please don't whitewash the history.
 * They were officials of the Polish Secret Police.
 * The "revenge" was to kill and torture more than 40 Civilians.
 * The punishment was 4 years of prison for stealing potatoes, not so much for killing Germans.
 * use the source and don't play it down. Pommerland (talk) 13:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Please don't blackwash history
 * The article states clearly that they were former victims of Nazism atrocities
 * The article states clearly that they were believing that they are taking revenge for what was made to them by the Germans. Their belief can be viewed under the fact of the level of support for Nazism in those regions and the fact that majority of Germans according to post-war polls supported Nazism.
 * Thank you for confirming they were sentenced for their behaviour. Including ending life of a German Please don't delete it again. The theft of food sources in times of German made famine( a very serious crime) was indeed one of the crimes, but not the only one punished. Zientara was punished for eight years for attacking German population not for stealing of food resources.
 * You are deleting information that is clearly in the source.That they were victims of Germans, that they were punished.Note that I will be using Polish version of the article which is more detailed then the English summary.--Molobo (talk) 14:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The article cites "'The killers were young members of the security forces, people who had experienced the atrocities of war, the death of family members, concentration camps, forced labour. They had a lust for retaliation, and from victims they turned into the executioners', says Paweł Skubisz", which is (as I understand it) rather a possible explanation, not an ensured information. Every Pole in 1945 experienced the atrocities of war..., but does Mr. Skubisz realy know it concretely? I havn't found any concrete information about their experiences before 1945.
 * Where they sentenced for murder or torture? Or were they sentenced for stealing potatoes?
 * You deleted that they were officials of the Polish Police, not just some young men. Pommerland (talk) 15:19, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't use the summary in English but two extensive articles in Polish of which the English summary is based on.
 * The article states clearly that Zenatara was punished for eight years in prison for attacks against German population by Polish court.
 * They were not members of Polish police but of communist Urzad Bezbieczenstwa which also murdered and tortured Poles.

Anyway right now the whole sentence is manipulated and incorrect. It makes no mention that two court trials took place after the events became known, it makes no mention that the events happened due to isolation of the area by winter, it makes no mention that the some of the accused comitted suicide and therefeore couldn't be sentenced. Also to put it frankly mthe fate of 40 Germans seems irrelevent to this article considering the demographic.--Molobo (talk) 16:16, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

@ User: Space Cadet @ User:Molobo Pommerland (talk) 08:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC) --Molobo (talk) 10:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Please explain, why you don't like to mention the fact, that they were officials of the Polish Secret Police
 * Please explain why you don't like to mention the fact that 40 people were killed
 * Please explain, why you like to call it "revenge" instead of murder
 * Please explain, why you don't like to mention the fact, that they were not sentenced for murder but for robbery
 * Please explain, why you don't like to mention the fact, that it happened in Winter 1945/46
 * Please explain, why you prefer to whitewash criminals
 * Please acknowledge, that User:Molobo started to delete a version that existed for quiet a long time
 * killing 40 Germans is irrelevant, did I get you right?
 * Please explain why you don't like the fact they were victims of Germans.Sure we can add that those victims of German atrocities became members of communist UB
 * Please explain why you don't like the fact that the the number is unconfirmed, and speculation. But we can mention the 40 number Germans being killed in revenge.
 * Please explain why don't enter the fact that they were sentenced for attacks on Germans and Zientara got eight years in prison.
 * Please explain why you don't like the fact that it was consequence(and is clearly mentioned in the Polish language article) of German started war in which those people were treated as being lower then dogs, less rights then dogs and targeted for extermination. Which resulted in their desire to revenge
 * I didn't delete any information regarding Nazi Germany's atrocities. And since I want to add on eight years of prison for attacks against Germans by victims of Nazi Germany by Polish court I find your claim unsupported.
 * Please explain why this information is notable in the history of 900 year old city, rather then countless wars, invasions hand overs and so on. I suggest a seperate article for that.


 * I did NOT delete the fact that they were supposed victims of Germans, but again, as I understand the article, it's (only) a possible explanation by Mr. Skubisz.
 * 40 is the information given by Mr. Skubisz
 * was anybody sentenced for murder?
 * I don't think the history of Swinemünde is the history of countless wars and invasions.
 * I'll come back to this point at Trzebinia or Gmina Gidle Pommerland (talk) 11:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it is a speculation.
 * The article doesn't make it clear there was any murder. Some Germans died, but that could be deaths from old age why imprisoned. Also the article in Polish makes clear that some of the occused people comitted suicide in prison. The article doesn't list the sentences-says that Zientara was sentenced by Polish court for eight years in prison.
 * May I know how you found those articles ? Are they hyperlinked to this article ? I would like to know about this. The extermination of Polish population by German state during its campaing to create a racist state of 1000 year old Reich and perform genocide on beings considered by German state to be less then dogs(untermenschen") needs of course to be documented in very detailed way due to existance of Neo-nazi denial, and is incomperable to events here, which is simple abuse of power in area known for high Nazi activity by former victims of Nazism--Molobo (talk) 11:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Did you read the article at all? "Only on 5 January 1946 five detainees were killed at the police headquarters, including a 16-year-old girl. She had been in custody for two months, a UB officer raped her after she was arrested, and when it turned out he had infected her with syphilis, they decided to kill her because they had no money for the medicine. Another German woman, arrested for arguing with a Polish one, was beaten to death. A 22-year-old German civilian was hanged on a window bar, his body hung on a rope outside the building."

What's your definition of murder? Pommerland (talk) 12:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's an allegation, it isn't confirmed. There are many types of deaths and many cases where people can die by others action without murder happening.

--Molobo (talk) 12:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * We should stop this discussion as you obviously try to whitewash the crimes of the UB, even those proven by the Polish National Remembrance Institute (IPN). Pommerland (talk) 13:10, 17 August 2008 (UTC) P.S. I would really like to add your last sentence to your latest post at Kłecko, but I won't. Pommerland (talk) 13:19, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

USAAF raid on March 12, 1945
"On March 12, 1945 during World War II, Swinemünde suffered heavy destruction by USAAF bombing. At least 23,000 civilians died, mainly refugees fleeing from East Prussia and from surrounding areas."

It seems to me that this figure of 23,000 needs some reliable source.

Here are the details of the missions flown by the 8th Air Force on 12 March 1945

I have included all the missions flown that day just to show that although this was a large mission it was just one of several involving attacks on marshaling yards over Germany.

As a general rule the USAAF did not area bomb, although sometimes they did use a similar mix of bombs to that used by the RAF who specialised in area bombardment. Often during the WWII the initial estimates of the dead by the German authorities was 10 times higher than was later found to be the number. For example, the initial estimates for Dresden were as high as 250,000 but there is now agreement that the number of dead was around 25,000. Similarly the USAAF attacked Berlin on 3 February 1945:

This number of 23,000 dead is much higher than the average of many similar raids carried out by the USAAF, and as such "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources". --PBS (talk) 12:00, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Casualties were that high because Swinemünde is/was a small town, both in population and in area, crowded with about 70,000 expellees that day - more than twice as many as it had permanent inhabitants. All in all there were 100,000 people in town on 12 March 1945. I added some modern sources per book search, but I am sure one can find more and better ones in the library. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:18, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * What are the cited sources used by those secondary source for the numbers they state died? --PBS (talk)
 * I have no idea, as far as I've seen they do not cite their primary source. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I looked up the ones I could find under Google Books, and it does not seem that any of them are academic histories as they do not appear to cite their sources. Without such citations there is no way to know where the figures come from. See for example the Davis book above. I have removed the citations from the quote from page 500, but if you look up the page number you will see that the facts are cited on page 500 and the citations are listed at the end of the chapter on page 515:
 * 48. New York Times, 6 February 1945, citing Swedish news service stories based on reports from returning plane passengers.
 * 49. Craven and Cate, Argument to V E Day, 3:726.
 * 50. Figures cited by Professor Doctor Olaf Groehler, Akademie der Wissenschaften der DDR, Zentralinstitute für Geschichte, Berlin, in a letter to Mr. Herman Wolk, Office of Air Force History, 6 March 1990. Given the number of homeless, Professor Groehler assessed the raid as the heaviest single raid to hit Berlin during the war.
 * As I said above the initial war time figures were often much higher than the final numbers, and without knowledge of the primary sources used, there is no way to know if the figure is accurate. --PBS (talk) 20:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The victims were buried at the "Golm", a hill close to Swinemünde. Today there's a Youth Meeting Center, operated by the German wargrave commission (Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge). They use a number of "more than 20000 people" jbs-golm.de.
 * People from East Prussia and Eastern Pomerania were evacuated to Swinemünde by ship (Operation Hannibal). Some of these ships were destroyed by the attack, e.g. the freighter "Andros" with about 2.000 people on board (source: Günther Hähle, Swinemünde Swinoujscie - Stadt zwischen den Machtblöcken 1945 bis 2000; based on Polish statements at the salvage of the ship in 1948)
 * next to the Andros the Cordillera(12055 GRT), Tolina (2000 GRT), Heiligenhafen (1923 GRT), Ravensberg (1069 GRT), Hilde (491 GRT) and the Jasmund (276 GRT) sank. They all carried refugees.
 * Due to the high level of groundwater, most houses had no cellar and almost no bombshelter existed (in contrast to Dresden or any other larger town in Germany) Spiegel Das geplante Inferno. Pommerland (talk) 10:29, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems for the moment that those sources will have to suffice, but it seems to me that there is a PhD waiting for the first person to do a proper historical analysis of the raid and its aftermath. (For example the Speigel article contradicts Günther Hähle (570 bodies when salvaged). --PBS (talk) 15:12, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Just happened to see "an agreement" (!) of 23.000 death's in Dresden. The truth may not be fully known, but can certainly not be a matter of negociations and agreementss long time afterwards. How about Germany and Israel today "agreed" that 100.000 Jew were killed in the death camps ? 10 million murdered (without even been alledged to have done anything wrong) and 6 million of these were Jews. But the optimal truth is equally importaint for German death's during the Allied bombings of Germany. Arthur Harris, head of RAF, had a list of 96 german cities he wanted to erase from the earth, as vengance fo central Coventry and the Cathedral (+ mostly workers who lived in buildings without cellars next to their factories in East End, and initially was prohibited to take shelter in the tube stations).
 * Harris' plan to destruct not only the nazists and other Germans, but also thousand year of history. "Topped" with the three 1000-bombplanes attack on the over crowded Dresden, which was a half-million city normally, but its inhabitation had grewn after perhaps a million refugees had fled Silesia during the Red Army offensive (which started in mid January -45). I've seen death tolls of Dresden up to 2 million. That's presumaly not close to the truth. But all investigations that doesn't cound bodies, but missing people all seem to exceed 200.000. And Dresden was not even a military target ! So 25.000 deths in Swinoujsie doesn't sound exaggerated. The nazist had V2 ramps in the area, I believe. War is terrible also without mad men like Hitler, Himmler and Stalin (and Harris). Boeing720 (talk) 15:28, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Local question
If I arrive by ferry from Sweden, and wants tovisit the town itself or continue to the German part of Usedom , how can I manage this. Google Maps shows no bridge or tunnel under Odra. Is there a transport ferry across the river and harbour ? If so, is it expensive to use ? I just had a short return trip in mind, before driving south. Any reply would be very much appriciated. Boeing720 (talk) 14:58, 30 March 2015 (UTC)