Talk:Žepče

Zepce map
It is true that places like Ljubatovici is part of Zepce like your little map (which is taken from bosnian wikipedia) and this is confirmed in the www.izbori.ba site which is the official site we all should go after. However if you look at the izbori site you clearly see the map of Zepce underlined as was in previour map of Bosnia until you changed it to the way you wanted it.

And Novi Seher is part of Maglaj, not Zepce. 85.30.179.241 (talk) 21:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This map was taken from bosnian wikipedia []. In it, it is clearly visible that Novi Seher is part of Maglaj municipality. That is also true for the map above. Don't see any problem with a map from validated sourceCeha (talk) 21:34, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. take some time to read about wikipedia rules of conduct or you'll be reported. You've already broke more then a few rules.Ceha (talk) 21:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I havent.

You know, you cant just make your own maps in the way you want. If something is official it is, if the official election commitea have underlined a map showing the maps of municipalities in Bosnia, then it is like that, and you have no right to make own maps and take away territories from Maglaj and Zavidovici. Bosnianjustice (talk) 22:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Again, it should be wise for you to read those rules. Deletion of sorced data is called vandalism and for repeated use of it you'll be blocked from editing this encyclopediae. If you have something to discuss, there is a discussion panel in that map. There are three things I would adwise you:

Ceha (talk) 22:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) go to the bosnian wiki and ask moderators on it to check that data
 * 2) open discussion panel on that map and start discussion
 * 3) please do try to study more carefully that map. Novi Šeher is a big village, it's hard to miss it.

You had no source at all since you made up that map.

And Novi Seher is a big village, a big bosniak village. Bosnianjustice (talk) 06:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I can see that you can not read, but I'll repeat this one more time. Little map is taken from and the big one reflects it. Consider this a last worning. Ceha (talk) 07:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

If you report me I will do the same thing for you. Since you are the one who are breaking the rules, I am only taking away what you do according to your own rules. Bosnianjustice (talk) 09:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

As I said before, feel free to report me anytime you see fit. I didn't brake any of those rules, and if took the time to read them you would comprehend that. Ceha (talk) 09:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Guys, what are you sqabbling over? Whether the little red speck in the locator map is going to move half a millimeter further down or down? Don't be ridiculous. This is a locator map, its purpose is to give the reader a rough orientation whereabouts this place is. Nobody is going to look at the details of the shape of the little red speck.
 * I would be interested to see the sources for the larger map and those boundary changes though. Please keep in mind that other Wikipedia articles or other Wikipedias don't count as reliable sources, so you need to find out where they got the information from. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course:) I've contacted person which puted map with new municipial borders, so when he/she answers I'll put sources on the image.

Ceha (talk) 16:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

You havent contacted anybody. You simply made that map by yourself on a map hat either way doesnt show the current division of Mostar correctly.

As far as the map, I am simply really sure that the official election commitea knows better than you.

Future perfet sunrise:

It is important since in this case the map that Ceha made is taking away parts from Maglaj and Zavidovici municipality and put them on Zepce municipality. Bosnianjustice (talk) 00:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * As I said, when I get the original sources I'll put that in image tag and should be enough.

And a few things for bj: a)Mostar is one municipality not many. b)there was a border change 2001 of Žepče municipality. Please try to google. Don't be stupid. I'm realy loosing my patience with you.Ceha (talk) 06:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Mostar is one municipality, however it contains 6 municipality election parts, 3 is from former east mostar and 3 from former west mostar. And out of thoose 6 election parts you will get a complete different map from what that map we have on Wikipedia shows.

As for Zepce, the election commitea map dates from 2006 and it shows the current municipality andn ot your imagined map. Bosnianjustice (talk) 08:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I will include a reliable source later today that confirms what I say, mostly to prove me right for the moderators. Bosnianjustice (talk) 08:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Above map is municipality map. Not election one. Ceha (talk) 08:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I will include a reliable source later today that confirms what I say Good, do that and please abstain from reverting the article untill you have any source. So far, your edits come very close to vandalism and you have violated WP:3RR. JdeJ (talk) 09:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Page protection
From what I gather, there is a general agreement here. Ceha, Fut.Perf., and myself are for restoring the map. It's a good NPOV map and no other alternative has been presented. The only editor not agreeing is Bosnianjustice, who has been unable to source his objection despite constant revisions. JdeJ (talk) 14:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Is there a published official version from which this map could be verified? --B (talk) 14:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This one is probably one of the best sourced, the map used by UNHCR on their webpages: www.unhcr.ba/maps/01/Minicipalities.pdf

JdeJ (talk) 19:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * From comparing the map you gave to the map in the article, Žepče and the county to the right of it look like they are shaped differently. It's hard to compare, but it looks like the PNG in the article gives Žepče a small chunk of the neighboring county. --B (talk) 19:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly, that's the point of the edit Ceha made. The UNHCR map is from 2002, but some minor adjustments were made to the municipality. Since Zepce is a mainly Croatian municipality surrounded by Bosniak municipalities, some neighbouring Croat-inhabited villages in other municipalities were added to Zepce. The other map in this article, Image:Zepce_nova.JPG, illustrates this. As you can see, the old borders mark those at UNHCR map from 2002 while the new borders on that map are the same as on the map Ceha put up. I don't know why Bosnianjustice is contesting the map, but a guess might be that he, as Bosniak, objected to the redrawal of the municipality border. Whatever the case, the redrawing of the border is a fact, Ceha has made a good contribution to Wikipedia by updating the map for this page to reflect the new municipalit borders and Bosnianjustice has not produced anything to support his objections to the map. That's why I hope it will be restored. JdeJ (talk) 19:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok ... let me ask this question - is it a legitimate border dispute? (I'm imagining not because this is all within a single country, right?) If it isn't a legitimate dispute and it's pretty well agreed that there is no legitimate dispute, there's no reason to protect the article.  --B (talk) 20:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not Bosnian but I follow the situation in the country and understand the language well enough to read news in the native language. To the best of my knowledge, there is no border dispute involved. Not only are these municipalities all Bosnian, they are also all within the Federation-half of Bosnia. There's thus no change of government or anything similar. To be perfectly honest, I have no idea what Bosnianjustice objects to in this case. JdeJ (talk) 20:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * He said this above - "It is important since in this case the map that Ceha made is taking away parts from Maglaj and Zavidovici municipality and put them on Zepce municipality" - which looks to be a reasonable statement based on looking at the PDF. I looked at the Bosnian Wikipedia (bs:Žepče) and they use Image:Zepce Municipality Location.png, but there's a big giant question mark next to it and I don't know what that means.  That article is edited sparingly, though, so it may be out of date. It would be nice to have someone who can speak definitively to the correct situation. (Maybe find some active users from Category:User bs and ask for comment?) --B (talk) 21:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * This is the case. Borders of žepče municipality where changed in 2001, as can be seen in this image in bosnian wikipedia. On that map it is clearly shown which parts of neighbouring municipalities were added to Žepče. According to those changes I changed locator map. Also I asked (but I didn't get the answer yet) to give some sources on that change.


 * I tried to reason with Bosnianjustice(my discussion is visible) but that was in veine. This user is new to this encyclopaedia and much of his contributions contains speculations(repeated calls for validation of election data as valid demographic means). It is somewhat unclear to me to the motives of this user, as he in the first sentence of this discussion validates the small map, and than denies vallidity to the large map which was made after it.Ceha (talk) 22:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok ... I'd feel a lot better if someone who lives in the country or at least speaks the language and can read Bosnian government websites/news sources/whatever could confirm it one way or the other. This isn't something where it's he said she said - it should just be a simple matter of finding the right answer.  But at any rate, I've unprotected the article ... I still recommend trying to get an outside authoritative answer, though. --B (talk) 01:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I found it:) But it is in Bosnian. [] In articles 2 and 3 there is a list of settlements which are added to žepče municipality, and which are shown on little image That should be enough for putting the disputed image back on the page?Ceha (talk) 07:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Evidence for what I have clearly point out:

http://www.izbori.ba/rezultati/konacni/parlament_bih/bihMainPage.asp?jed=514

Thats from the election for the Federation government in 2006

http://www.izbori.ba/rezultati/konacni/parlament_fbih/entitiesMainPage.asp?jed=405

Here is more detailed and closer look, notice that this is strictly official fact from the election commitea! Bosnianjustice (talk) 21:00, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

http://www.izbori.ba/rezultati/konacni/kantoni/cantonsMainPage.asp?jed=204

This is taken from same site but this time about the cantonal election. Here you clearly see how much bigger the bosniak majority municipalities Zenica, Kakanj, Maglaj, Vares, Olovo and Visoko is. Even tesanj is in the same size. Bosnianjustice (talk) 21:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Those maps shows prewar municipality borders. You can see on it small packets west of Maglaj municipality which were before war parts of Teslić municipality and which entered Federation, and were added to Maglaj. As I pointed before, Bosnainjustice, municipal and election maps are not necessary the same. Your example of Mostar municipality and election entities in it is a good example for that. And btw those chunks are not shown in all three links you provided.Ceha (talk) 23:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Those are not prewar maps!

First of all, the village Ozimica that you say were added to Zepce municipality that is part of Zepce according to the election commitea and that village is part of this map of Zepce municipality that you claim to be a prewar map.

And look at Mostar, did Mostar before war divided in 6 semi municipalities? Look at the election entites of Mostar, 3 in east and 3 in west Mostar and you will see that this is not, and I repeat NOT a prewar map. I cant believe I hear something from you. I guess this proves it all, that you are not serious here. If you claim this map to be prewar. You might even take a look at the prewar map?

I am now going to take away that map since I have official map of the official election commitea, which means that everyone from Zepce that is voting in the election, are voting from the map that I showed you. This should settle it, more offical link you cant get. Bosnianjustice (talk) 08:35, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I was wrong, this is not prewar map. There is municipality of Usora on in which did not exist before the war. But this is not a municipal map eather. There is no Teslić municipality in Federation, and those little specks of territory are not independent municipality. Ceha (talk) 10:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Further evidence
1. Slijedeća naseljena mjesta će pored toga biti uključena u općinu Žepče: Brankovići, Donji Lug, Gornji Lug, Vrbica, Debelo Brdo, Osova, Vinište i Gornja Lovnica. 2. Teritorije naselja navedenih u stavu 1. ovog člana ranije su pripadale općini Zavidovići.

It says here that villages Brankovici, Donji and Gornji Lug, Vrbica and so on are part of Zepce now and were part of Zavidovici before. But look at the election commitea:

http://www.izbori.ba/rezultati/konacni/PoOsnovnimJedinicama1.asp?naziv=@EP^E&nivo=514&kod=075

Here we clearly see that people from Vrbica, Donji Lug, Viniste are voting in the Zepce municipality and not in Zavidovici, which mean that the election commitea has approved the small changes of municipality border and that the current map that is shown in the election site is the map of Zepce after redrawing municipality border! Bosnianjustice (talk) 08:50, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

We can also see this in the case in Maglaj municipality:

1. Slijedeća naseljena mjesta će pored toga biti uključena u općinu Žepče: Adže, Pire, Ponijevo, Matina, Ljubatovići, Grabovica, Čustovo Brdo, Komšići, Radunice, Globarica. 2. Teritorije naselja navedenih u stavu 1. ovog člana ranije su pripadale općini Maglaj.

Here it says the same thing but as for Maglaj and look at the election result in Zepce

http://www.izbori.ba/rezultati/konacni/PoOsnovnimJedinicama1.asp?naziv=@EP^E&nivo=514&kod=075

Here we clearly see that the election result does indeed include Pire, Ljubatovici, Matina, Ponijevo and Globarica which were BEFORE PART OF MAGLAJ AND NOW PART OF ZEPCE. And the election result does indeed include theese villages as part of Zepce in the current map.

This definatly should settle it. Bosnianjustice (talk) 08:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Further on, we should know that theese parts are only a thiny little bit and barely is able too see in a map. It is maybe 4-5 villages in Zavidovici, and maybe 7 or 8 in Maglaj and the election commitea has included all theese into Zepce municipality so that theese villages are included in Zepce election. Also we might seen in this map that Zepce actually are a little bigger now then before war, why, well now its obvious, because parts of Maglaj and Zavidovici were added. Thats why this Ceha map isnt proper for a reliable map here at Wikipedia, since he has taken great parts of Maglaj municipality which in reality is untrue since only small villages were added and thoose villages were only a couple of kilometres away from the city.

Although I dont want to return to old map either since that is also untrue, in that case about Mostar since Mostar is divided, but not like that. For example in East Mostar is included:

1. Cvrsnica mountan to the border of Risovac and Posusje municipality 2. Diva Grabovica and Strizevo, villages of Donja and Gornja Dreznica included 3. Velez and parts of Prenj mountain 4. Everything east of Bulevar street in the city section 5. Blagaj 6. Neretva river all the way from Blagaj to Jablanica included villages like Vrapcici, Potoci, Glogosnica

Thats East Mostar,correctly by the way that almost 100 % of the citizens there are bosniaks and were part of East Mostar during and after war and the election entities are divided into east and west mostar.

Thats why the map before and now is uncorrect, because of Mostar and because of Cehas map. Bosnianjustice (talk) 09:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

As an summary to all this, I can say that we have concluded following things:

1. The map is uncorrect since Ceha has made it on his own without regard to whats official 2. The election commitea (which is as official as you may get) have indeed accepted thoose small villages as part of Zepce and has an detailed map of the current Zepce WHERE all thoose maps are included 3. All thoose villages were very close to the city itself and as such makes the map of the election commitea very reliable ( as if they have anything to prove) 4. That map is untrue because of this and has to be removed 5. The previour map is also untrue and uncorrect because of Mostar and its wrongly division 6. In the election site, you can clearly see the current ethnic and electional divison of Mostar 7. This map dates from 2006 and thoose changes Ceha made was made in 2001 and if the election commitea can change Mostar division like they did after war then I am sure they can do it to Zepce

So, conclusion:

Zepce map is correctly written in the election site based on what I wrote and sourced. Mostar is wrongly divided and should be removed based on source and current ethnical situation over there. Bosnianjustice (talk) 09:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Only thing you've proven here is that election comitee has right list of villages. There are 8 villages from Zavidovići which were added to Žepče; And 10 villages from Maglaj which were aded to Žepče; You can find them all on this []. So I'm going to change the map back. If you don't belive me, try to find more precise map, and you'll se the new border is right. Ceha (talk) 11:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Brankovići
 * Donji Lug
 * Gornji Lug
 * Vrbica
 * Debelo Brdo
 * Osova
 * Vinište
 * Gornja Lovnica
 * Adže
 * Pire
 * Ponijevo
 * Matina
 * Ljubatovići
 * Grabovica
 * Čustovo Brdo
 * Komšići
 * Radunice
 * Globarica


 * I agree fully with Ceha. Bosnianjustice, please stop blanking content as it is vandalism. Ceha has proved beyond any doubt that his map is accurate. JdeJ (talk) 19:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

JdeJ:

I will soon provide you with more official sources, from the federational institution and from the Zenica-Doboj kantonal tourism organization. And if you still dont believe me and believe in Ceha instead, then I will assume you are not a real moderator because you are not looking for sources and evidence and clearly take a stand for one special person.

I wouldnt be lying if I said that I dont believe you are a crusader. Bosnianjustice (talk) 08:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Just to fast prove my point:

1. I have provided one government source and soon more that proves my point and the current map of Zepce

2. Ceha havent provided any source at all and made his own map

Still you take his point despite the sources and evidence I have.

If you act like this you arent a fair moderator and if you keeps continue like that after I put my 4 sources today, then I will not see you as a legitimite moderator. Bosnianjustice (talk) 08:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * 1. You haven't provided municipal map, but electional ones (divisons of Mostar municipality, parts of prewar Teslić municipality which are visible on those maps)
 * 2. [] Disission of change of žepče municipality borders and map showing it.

As I said, Bosnianjustice, this is not a place for argue. If you have something against those arguments, please provide more detailed map of Žepče in which all the villages from the list above are seen.Ceha (talk) 08:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, isnt the tourism map or the federational government map enoguth detailed for you? If not, can you on some point, point out any part of your so called map that is clearer and more detailed than official government, election and tourism map? Any?

And all thoose villages are clearly visable in all thoose map I point out, as a matter of fact, thoose maps that I will post after I quit the school, those maps shows clearly that all villages are part of Zepce and has almost exactly the same shape as the new map got and you will see it today.

If not, I will personaly make a comparison between the map where thoose villages where included in the municipality and the map in official institution about current status and map of Zepce municipality.

Also, the map of Mostar is wrong, since just because there is East and West Mostar it doesnt neccesarily make all of East Mostar in eastern part because Dreznica, Cvrsnica and that part of Mostar was part of former East Mostar and if you are about to draw a line that separates east and west mostar, then do it properly. Bosnianjustice (talk) 10:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

What are you taliking about?
 * 1.Mostar is one municipality.
 * 2.Find a detailed map which shows all the villages and Žepče.Ceha (talk) 10:25, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Mostar is one municipality only on paper, for example when it is elections, people from former east mostar are voting in 3 municipalities. As such, when you make maps about Mostar you must draw the line how it should be. Which means that Cvrsnica mountain, Grabovica, Dreznica belongs to the bosniak majority east mostar and in those areas of Herzegovina, there arent any croats at all.

As for Zepce, I have found official maps but you havent found anything. You have that map of those villages that were added, but that doesnt prove anything since that map that is shown in all official sources may very well be the same map. Bosnianjustice (talk) 11:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

For example, you croats are often when you say Herzegovina and speaks about that region, you are often mentioning the natural beauties of this bosnian region, and mentioning risovac, cvrsnica, neretva and so on when talking about that region.

What you often seem to forget is that 90 % of the Cvrsnica mountain chain, belongs to the bosniak majority municipalities of East Mostar and Jablanica and in theese parts of Herzegovina you cant find any croat at all. From the beggining of the mountainious Herzegovina, in Dreznica to the end of the mountainous Herzegovina near Doljani in Jablanica its all in bosniak areas.

In Dreznica you have both Gornja and Donja Dreznica, in Cvrsnica mountain you have East Mostar and Jablanica while the smaller part, 10 % and Risovac park is located in Posusje, but only 10 % of it.

Also, Prenj is in East Mostar smaller part and in Konjic bigger part.

As for Neretva, all the way from Konjic to Mostar it flows trough bosniak areas, konjic, jablanica and then east mostar and even in the city itself it flows through east mostar since the border goes through Bulevar street and not Neretva.

Which means that when croats in West Mostar get warm during the warm summer and need to cold down in Neretva, then they need to go to East mostar and area where there are no croats and almost clean bosniak.

Now, Neretva flows through the city, then through Vrapcici, Potoci, Grabovica, Glogosnica and all the way to Konjic through bosniak areas.

Theese facts, together with the fact that Mostar, the biggest city and center of this region, is divided makes you live in a reality world inspired by nationalism, mostly based on wrong facts because as I said.

Cvrsnica, Dreznica, Neretva, Velez, Prenj, Jablanica lake, and even some part of Risovac is in bosniak areas.

Think about that. Bosnianjustice (talk) 11:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Again, this is an encyclopaedia. If you want to speculate go to the forum. Ceha (talk) 11:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

You mean like www.al-firdaws.net/vbe

Well, I am part there, but here I want to add whats official and sources. Bosnianjustice (talk) 12:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Then stick to the facts. And please, try to learn the wikipedian rules of conduct.Ceha (talk) 13:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I am.

Now I am going to put sources for what I said. Bosnianjustice (talk) 15:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Just keep in mind that all of your sources are not valid for changing žepče municipal border on the map. Ceha (talk) 15:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they are since they are official. Bosnianjustice (talk) 15:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Does pissanna mean "written"?
I am not very well acquainted with Slavic languages, let alone medieval Slavic languages, but the translation given here seems strange. ''Pissanna Žepču va ljetu 1458. oktombrija 14. dan.'' translating to "Written in Žepče in the year 1458. 14.day of October". Could someone familiar with the language check it to verify? 'pisana' (with one 's' and one 'n') means "script" in modern Serbo-Croatian.  — Soap  —  23:17, 23 April 2010 (UTC)