Talk:ΜTorrent/Archive 4

UTorrent tedddee 08:22, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

µTorrent is great !
I'm stuck out in the country where highspeed internet connections are not available. Yes, I use a 56k modem. Aaargh! Anyways, µTorrent has a scheduler option that allows the user to set the upload and download speeds for every hour of every day of the week. This handy option allows me to have µTorrent running in the background while I use the internet. I use 2.0 kB/s download and 1.0 kB/s upload and it does not cause any noticable lagg. When I'm not using the internet I put µTorrent on full throttle (which because of my connection, is slower than a snail stuck in cold molassis). Torrents stay available for download for days, weeks and even sometimes months allowing people with 56k connections to download large files.
 * The talk page is really for discussion of the article, not the place for user testimonials. I appreciate that you support the software, but that's really not what this space is for. Canonblack 14:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

List on the page
The list of features is ripped right from the µT homepage. Needs to be rewritten, I've done enough work on the page for now :)  splintax  (talk) 08:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

uTorrent vs. mTorrent
Judging from the information on the Wikipedia page for Micro, the μ symbol should be replaced with a u, not an m. Therefore, I think this page should really be renamed uTorrent (with UTorrent appearing in the title due to MediaWiki restrictions). Any comments?

LinkTiger 02:18, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd agree with that. This article says it's sometimes known as uTorrent, but doesn't say it's sometimes known as mTorrent. Also, the website is utorrent.com, not mtorrent.com. KeithD 09:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Errr...it's not "mTorrent" or "MTorrent", it's "ΜTorrent". The Μ is not an M - it is not a capital m, it is a capital µ (mu), the greek character that represents the SI prefix micro. Nobody is calling it mTorrent or MTorrent. Μ and M are different, they just look the same (like Alpha and A, or Beta and B, or Epsilon and E, or Omicron and O, or Zeta and Z, or Rho and P, or Chi and X, or Upsilon and Y).
 * Interesting point. I guess that makes sense, then. --Gary King 06:03, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. ΜTorrent is the way to go, especially since it we have the redirect at uTorrent already. Maybe we should subst: to explain the M-lookalike thing?  splintax  (talk) 06:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

It makes little sense whatsoever to call it mtorrent. The downloaded exe is named "utorrent.exe". mtorrent bring back 600 results on google. utorrent brings back 671,000. As you claim before "like Alpha and A, or Beta and B, or Epsilon and E, or Omicron and O, or Zeta and Z, or Rho and P, or Chi and X, or Upsilon and Y" it would make sense to call this articke Mutorrent. The first two returns for mtorrent are wikipedia which by itself cas created this "mtorrent" I see the argument above saying its a standard on WP, however i think the authors preference, should precede anything else. Therefore I think a vote is in order, and my vote is utorent -wabiD
 * It makes little sense whatsoever to call it mtorrent Agreed, but uTorrent directs here, so it's okay. But I guarantee that no-one comes to Wikipedia cold and types in MTorrent looking for the article on uTorrent --Paul 10:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, all *nix references for micro use 'u'. There's no reason to use a 'M' here. --Scandum 21:29, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * With 5 vs 2 votes on changing the article's name I'm making the change. Especially the program's website using 'utorrent' instead of 'mtorrent' is a strong argument that shouldn't be ignored. --Scandum 21:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Alas, I can't move it, so going about this the official way. --Scandum 21:56, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Added a voting section at the bottom of the page. Talk:%CE%9CTorrent

Upcoming features
µTorrent Translation System is a feature of the community, not the program. Moved to external links.

Requested move

 * Talk:ΜTorrent — ΜTorrent → UTorrent – The official name of this bittorrent client is µTorrent which stands for Micro Torrent. The 'µ' character is generally replaced by an 'u' like the website of the client (http://www.utorrent.com), and most micro second related *nix commands, usleep, utime, etc. Despite that the client is most commonly refered to as uTorrent and isn't known as MTorrent (besides on Wikipedia of course) some editors are quite adamant about keeping the article listed as ΜTorrent because 'Μ' represents the Greek character for micro. -- Scandum 21:55, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~ 


 * Support The author of the client obviously prefers uTorrent. Scandum 22:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Support uTorrent is its common name. --Paul 06:49, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Support The official website is utorrent.com, not mtorrent.com. KeithD 10:37, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Week oppose The current article name is µTorrent, with a capitalized µ. mTorrent is only a redirect to this article. UTorrent doesn't look right either. --Boivie 13:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Support I agree, since the dev himself calls it uTorrent, and there's many other examples where the µ is replaced with a u to make it easier to write. 70.45.50.121 07:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose There are many articles with an initial lowercase Greek letter and they are at the respective upper case letter. Official site uses µ. If people don't want to use µ they usually use u not U. Also Boivie's reason. WP 07:48, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose while references to uTorrent are abound and correct, there's no need to bastardise use of µTorrent/MTorrent – lower or upper case – if they, too, are correct. Perhaps the question should be whether UTorrent (upper case) is correct or common.  This is even more germane because the application/term contains Micro and Wp is unable to render initial title characters in lower/either case; however, (hatnote notwithstanding) might some mistake the current article/title for meaning "Mega Torrent" instead (since 'M' is the SI abbreviation for mega)?  14:34, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose for correctness' sake. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 21:38, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
I'd also agree that the M that isn't really an M version probably doesn't even exist outside Wikipedia and its derivatives --Paul 06:49, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Keeping the article at µTorrent (which capitalized is ΜTorrent) makes wp-linking easier, µTorrent points directly at this page. By moving it to UTorrent, wp-links has to be µTorrent to not point at a redirect-page. --Boivie 07:39, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Typing uTorrent is even easier, I don't know even how to type the alternative. --Paul 08:07, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You can find all Greek letters, and lots more, in the Insert-box right below the "Save page"-button. --Boivie 08:26, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * First you state it makes wiki linking easier, next you state extra trouble isn't a problem. The redirect might be somewhat annoying, but so is the current explanation at the top of the current page, which can be merged into the intro if we change the name. Regardless, most users are faced with a redirect currently when searching for "utorrent". --Scandum 15:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If you move the page to uTorrent, you'd still have to keep the capitalization explanation, because the page name will be UTorrent, and not uTorrent. --Boivie 15:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Adware
According to our article Adware or advertising-supported software is any software package which automatically plays, displays, or downloads advertising material to a computer after the software is installed on it or while the application is being used.

µT displays ads when it is used to search for certain terms. This is different to software that blasts you with popups left, right and center but µT still meets the definition for adware. WP 07:48, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Except for the automatically part, I hadn't realised there were ads until this little edit war --Paul 08:10, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I read it as automatically .. displays .. advertising material .. while the application is being used. If you use it a certain way you will automatically get ads. WP 08:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The difference is that it's not shown in the client, it's shown on the search website. This would be like linking to Mininova or some other tracker and getting your program labeled as adware because of the ads on the site. 70.45.50.121 19:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should call it freeadware :P I guess the bone of contention is that the term adware is kind of pejorative, which is a little unfair --Paul 11:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Q.v. 'admail'. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 15:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Using this reasoning Firefox is adware as well because the google search bar leads to google.com which can contain ads based on the filled in search words.

The last paragraph added to the Peerfactor section needs to be rewritten (and into another section at that). I removed it because it has no sources, isn't well written, and is just speculation (stating that µTorrent is affiliated with UseNeXT and that UseNeXT is a scam). Affiliation is not the same thing as showing an ad, and "advertisement" doesn't need to be explicitly stated for it to be one.

µ not μ
Someone changed all the µs(U+00B5) to μs(U+03BC). I reverted because the official site uses U+00B5. WP 09:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * µ (00B5) is the "Micro" sign. μ (03BC) is the lowercase latin letter mu. So it isn't "mutorrent" it is "microtorrent". -- 82.152.177.94 22:06, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Please move to uTorrent
Please move this page to uTorrent (any admins listening??). The author calls it u-Torrent and the official site is www.utorrent.com and this page must also be moved --Rrjanbiah 13:06, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * See the discussion above, the common naming convention (as opposed to the strictly correct, but less likely to be used name) appears not to apply here --Paul 19:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see why you're asking for admins, since anybody can move it. The author does not call it "u-Torrent", he calls it µTorrent, as that's what the program's called.


 * Damn it! It's been long time.. and nothing has been changed from lame fight. Anyway, please speak through data--he calls it you-torrent. And, I wasn't found the move link and just found it. --Rrjanbiah 13:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I do believe that he's referred to it as uTorrent before, but that's simply for the sake of convenience. The official site is utorrent.com to make it easy for en-US keyboard layout users to visit it. As Paul said, we're using the "correct" name, rather than the "commonly used" name. There's no problem in any case, as uTorrent redirects here.  splintax  (talk) 14:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, but I was arguing that WP guidelines seem to suggest that the overwhelmingly more common term (utorrent wins 855K to 36K in a google fight) as being the better choice. --Paul 16:49, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * As the Google test above and the software's own website show, uTorrent would be a better title. -Grick(talk to me!) 20:50, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've changed my stance after reading the page on naming conventions.
 * When choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine?
 * Most people would type "uµTorrent". I'm going to WP:BB and move the article now.

I'm afraid, Wikipedia is lost on the bureaucracy; it's been long time and no takers to move this page? For my level of access, I couldn't move this page as the uTorrent page is already existing. --Rrjanbiah 13:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally, I don't think it should me moved. As long as mTorrent and uTorrent redirect here, there shouldn't really be any problem. The name's officially µTorrent. Please note that what looks like a capital em in the page title is actually a capital Greek letter µ (mu). It is only because of the the url's inability to express sepcial characters like µ and because of the difficulty or incovenience for the average user of writing µ that the program is known as uTorrent. Theshibboleth 06:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Even if it is the capital mu, it still makes little sense to anybody who has just arrived at the page. Very few people are going to search for it this program in the English wikipedia using greek letters, either upper or lower case, and even fewer are going to be aware Μ is the capital of μ.    They will search for "utorrent" for the reasons you state.  Leaving it on this page seems overly pedantic imo. --Frantik 15:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't believe it's causing any problems the way it is. The redirect works fine.  The only forseeable problem is that if something else came along later calling itself MTorrent. --ozzmosis 07:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, think about the situation when 'ozzmosis' redirects to 'f000'; would you agree with it? --Rrjanbiah 11:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * For your analogy to be correct, the redirect would need to be for technical reasons. Then only the article title would be wrong, with a clear explanation in the article header, with the rest of the article using whatever was most common, and I would accept that.  Which is how I feel about this article. --ozzmosis 16:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, for whoever said that Wikipedia guidelines suggest you name the article after what people type into the search bar, there's a lot of articles that don't. Eg. More people would type 'Ecstasy' over 'Methylenedioxymethamphetamine', or 'Smell' over 'Offaction'. I think we should stick with what is technically correct and not what the author of the program types for ease of use. Hanshi 15:49, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * UTorrent is the name of the offical website, so I think it should be called that. I know that "U" cannot replace the meaning of the Greek symbol. But what happens if you type "mutorrent.com" or "mtorrent.com" in the address bar, neither of them addresses go to the UTorrent website! I would move the article myself, but it would only get reverted a few seconds later. -- Tickopa  19:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

April 2006 cleanup
I am the one who initially added the Controversy section, after noticing the Slyck News article. It seems to have provoked a flurry of edits expanding and responding to the situation, and not all of these edits have been phrased very well or appropriately sourced. Therefore I added a  template and made some notes in HTML comments within the section itself. Please see those comments for what needs to be changed or added. I also asked for a citation for a source of info about the new PeerFactor company being formed by disgruntled employees of the old.—mjb 17:08, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Added that citation a while back, and cleared up the closed source argument, since it is completely untrue that it is not possible to determine exactly what closed-source apps are doing.70.45.49.169 03:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the citation. Re: closed source, you didn't really "clear it up"; you just raised an interesting point to consider about closed source apps not being completely opaque. However, while it is possible to observe the behavior of any application, that's of little comfort to the average BitTorrent user, who is in no position to put their privacy on the line while they go to a great deal of trouble (more trouble than it would be to inspect source code and do local builds) to scour and decrypt TCP packets in an effort to determine whether the app is sending info to places it shouldn't. To date, there is no evidence that anyone has undertaken such an effort on any BitTorrent client or ruled out any possibilities, whereas there is evidence that people prefer to wash their hands of µTorrent and migrate to clients about which (or about whose developers) they feel more confident, regardless of what objective arguments may exist that might alleviate their concerns. So I tried to address this in the article today, while retaining your point about closed source apps being observable.—mjb 19:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I suppose it isn't feasible for the average user, but since no one has properly audited any client (to my knowledge), it is possible for any of them to be doing it right now without anyone's knowledge. Open source can make it easier, but there's a lot of code, and a lot of ways to obfuscate code. I like your edits so far though, and thanks for keeping the counter-point in there. You did a good job cleaning up the entire section.

--- Thoughts: --- While I agree there should be some reference to the Contoversy, I think it needs to be toned down a little in regards to the current ųTorrent client, the issues are about the authors motivations (need for money) is related to him writing the PROTOCOL for their program which has nothing to do with the current incarnation of the ųTorrent client software (having being written and released prior to the contract) perhaps noting ramifications for future releases although the author does dispute that the client will be tied into any other ventures. (commercial programmers working for one vendor then moving to another vendor to work on a similer product) 194.73.67.254 18 April 2006
 * By the way, U+00B5 (Alt 0181) µ is the correct character, not the one you're using :) I don't know how to tone that down (and perhaps move it into the author's article?), so I'll leave it for someone to do if they think it's necessary. 70.45.49.169 14:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the cleanup template; there are still a couple of things that need to be expanded upon (comments are still in the source), but overall, the tail end of the controversy section is looking better now. Now I seem to be in a small edit war over the paragraph that discusses closed-source. I like that we seem to agree on phrasing like "no evidence has (yet) been published that it does" instead of "in fact, it doesn't", but apparently my fellow editor still thinks it is utterly trivial to detect, in an application that has dozens of network connections to essentially random sources going at any one time, that one of the connections is not a legitimate peer but is actually the application phoning home with my private info (encrypted, perhaps) via some relay…just for a not-so-implausible example. We can speculate all we want about what the software might be doing and how easy it is to monitor, but no evidence has been presented that the average user of this software is technically savvy enough to do the kind of monitoring that would need to be done in order for the "it's possible to see what a closed-source app is doing" argument to be a reasonable dismissal of the claims of the paranoid, so we must not characterize their fears as illegitimate. Also, if I understand the critics' concerns correctly, they are worried more about what the application will do in future revisions, not necessarily what it's doing right now.—mjb 00:04, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Good work dude. Looks like this baby's comin out real nice. I fixed it up to look nicer. See you guys later maybe.XYZABC 00:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Moved to UTorrent
Most english users are going to be searching for uTorrent, not μTorrent, so I moved the page. In addition to causing slightly less server strain, it reduce confusion for people arriving at ΜTorrent, since most English speakers aren't familiar with the greek alphabet. -- Frantik 05:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC) 15:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

And here was me thinking Wikipedia was meant to be factually correct, not aesthetically-pleasing... --Hanshi 19:00, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Correct title is uTorrent?
Hey, I can agree with making the title of the page UTorrent (since µTorrent isn't allowed and UTorrent > MTorrent), but it looks kinda stupid saying the correct title is uTorrent when what we're really working around is µTorrent. I'm reluctant to simply substitute u for µ in the lowercase template because capital µ isn't a U, so what do you guys think?--Cyberdude93 10:50, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * the correct title of the article is uTorrent. The correct title of the program is μTorrent. :) --Frantik 21:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Feh, I'll bite. I still think the article name would not be uTorrent if lowercase letters were allowed, it'd be µTorrent (with a redirect from uTorrent of course). While it's true we're directly not using uTorrent because of technical restrictions, we're not using µTorrent indirectly because of technical restrictions; because we end up with MTorrent and uTorrent is a more common form.

Maybe none of the actual Wikipedia technical restriction templates apply well here, but uTorrent still isn't the actual name here.--Cyberdude93 17:32, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The page should definately never be called ΜTorrent because it isn't called μTorrent, it's µTorrent. That means it is "microTorrent" not "muTorrent". There is no capital micro sign, and the micro sign itself can't be used so it has to be uTorrent due to technical limitations. -- 82.152.177.94 22:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Anyway I still believe that the page should be under UTorrent on wikipedia as it is the name of the offical website. The only time I have ever heard this program called MTorrent or MuTorrent, is on the Wikipedia pages and personally I didn't know if I was in the correct article. --I am Tickopa 91.84.42.196 19:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC) uTorrent forever


 * I agree that the article should be renamed to UTorrent, simply because it's the substitute name / transcription in use. It's the name of the original program file, the Windows process, and of the original website. MTorrent is never mentioned and is therefore confusing as the name of this article. I've added a rename/move request to WP:Requested_moves. Subversive element 12:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand that the retarded wikipedia software forces you to call it UTorrent, but this is clearly wrong: ''The correct title of this article is µTorrent. The initial letter is shown capitalized due to technical restrictions. µ capitalized doesn't give U'', sorry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.162.75.71 (talk) 19:50, 9 December 2006
 * Thanks for pointing that out. I've changed it. -SpuriousQ 20:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Mobile Interface Screenshot
Umm, the image shows the user downloading warez, I'm not sure if this is allowed or not, but it would probably be best to replace it. Any thoughts? --Mincetro 11:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I really see no prob' with it, it's only an image. The text makes no direct (verifiable) reference to downloaded content, so there's no possibility of infringement of "rights" and all that crap. (Plus: I doubt that cell phone could have downloaded gigs of data...) But if some dudes out there might worry, a little blurring of the torrent names (nothing else) could do the trick which is usually done (for privacy or whatever).XYZABC 11:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It is a web interface, so the gigs of data are most probably being downloaded to a home PC. The mobile phone is just checking on the status of the downloads. WP 00:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not the point... I think the pic should be removed - it shows a german swearword "Arschfotze"
 * Too bad. Wikipedia is not censored. XYZABC 19:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the screenshot is somewhat questonable. Bit Torrent has faced lots of accusations for being a piracy (copyright infringement, if you prefer that term) tool. Having a screenshot of pirated stuff just supports the argument. For NPOV, the screenshot ought to contain legal stuff.

Size
Alright, that little part in Development under History was changed, and I guess I have forgotten how small the program was ("more than doubled" means "less than half of ver. 1.6"). So could somebody say what size it actually was at its first public release so it doesn't look like a false or exaggerated claim?XYZABC 19:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The first public release was 77KiB. 70.45.49.36 22:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Link spam
This is getting reall rediculous. Every day pretty much now I'm reverting the same link over and over. And the guy doesn't even have the same IPs. Unless someone forgot to tell me about something else, semi-protection is good for this kind of situation (at least temporarily), right?

The greek letter 'mu'
The name of the greek letter which is prefix to 'torrent' is 'mu'. The pronounciation of the letter however, is simply equivalent to the english 'm'. I've corrected the error. -Ray

Requested move
Reluctant move. Duja 09:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

MTorrent → UTorrent – UTorrent is the substitute name / transcription in wide use. It's the name of the original program file, the Windows process, and of the original website. MTorrent is never mentioned and is therefore confusing as the name of this article. Subversive element 12:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~
 * Support - "MTorrent" just looks wrong to English speakers. --NE2 00:29, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support I've always pronounced/heard it as "uTorrent".-- Hús  ö  nd  16:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * support I've see "micro" done as "u" in many different usages. Could also be called "muTorrent" 70.51.10.10 07:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
Add any additional comments
 * One may wonder why this article should be moved. Even though I support this move, it seems a little silly to move it to a title that's just as "wrong" as the current one.  Peter O. (Talk) 21:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If you moved it to "muTorrent", it'd be alot more "right" than "MTorrent". 70.55.87.17 02:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * &mu; is frequently abbreviated as "u" when dealing with the Metric prefix micro- 70.55.87.17 02:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * UTorrent wouldn't be as wrong as MTorrent for the reasons given in the request. Of course this depends on a majority sharing this opinion. Subversive element 09:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

got bought by bittorent, page should reflect that
utorrent just got bought, should probably be in the page but I don't know here to put it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.120.85.115 (talk) 03:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Move back.. again?
By adding at the top of the article µTorrent can be displayed correctly. I suggest we do this and move things back to µTorrent. --Scandum 13:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. I didn't know we could do this, or would have done it myself. µTorrent is the correct title. -SpuriousQ 22:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Support. µTorrent is most certainly the proper name, though many users don't type it that way out of convenience.  Likewise, a lot of people call Röyksopp Royksopp just because it's easier.  That doesn't mean it's correct.  --LakeHMM 04:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)