Talk:...And Justice for All (album)/Archive 1

Evile Frontman: Who cares?
Why does every article about a Metallica album include the opinions of Matt Drake from Evile? Who cares what this guy says? He is not a recognized critic and it makes no sense to throw his commentary everywhere. I'm removing it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.104.111.66 (talk) 20:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

'''You're right, why should his opinion be on every Metallica album page? I might as well start putting up my opinion and everyone else's. I tried removing it, but one of Wikipedia's moderators changed it back because it wasn't constructive enough. Well, honestly, moderators, do you think what Matt Drake thinks, belongs on this page?''' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.177.241.202 (talk) 15:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Another article clearly says the song "One" was not based on a movie - which is right? 24.61.84.44 04:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

"One" is based upon a controversial anti-war novel called "Johnny Got His Gun", which was adapted into an arthouse anti-war movie in the early 70s. The movie adaptation came and went after it's brief box office run and the novel, despite being extremely popular when it was released, fell out of print when America entered World War II.

Because Metallica only gave credit for the movie version in the video (IIRC the video credit at the start and end of the video clearly states that the bulk of the movie clips came from the movie, it created the myth that the song was based upon a movie and not a novel, though a lot of fans did know about the novel (since "Johnny Got His Gun", upon being put back into print, was a popular novel used by many high school classes as an example of anti-war literature) and created an upswing in public libraries seeing kids check out the book when the song hit popular rotation on MTV. BakerBaker

in audible bass
i wish people would just shut the hell up about the whole in audible bass thing. So fucking what....its done, its over with and alot of bands have in audible bass in them.....acdc for example. But no... thats never mentioned in acdc interviews and articles. I wish it would totally be removed from every article in the fucking world lol. To be honest this is there biggest masterpiece right next to master of puppets. I dont understand how its flawed.......but thats just me. The songs are deep and intense on this album.

To Live Is To Die
Another art

the lyrics are NOT by Burton. I dont know who wrote them but that's an old poem of some kin that he liked..someone change this.

I've always heard they were part something Cliff had written. I guess someone should verify it then. I think someone should add the complaints that you can't hear the bass guitar on the album due to the production. It's something I've always heard from other listeners. Cdwillis 07:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It says in the album's booklet "All lyrics by Hetfield, except "To Live Is To Die" by Burton." That kind of settles it.--Dayn 14:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The poem contains a few quotations from existing sources, so it's not 100% Burton. This is explained in the Cliff Burton article under "Songs". SirWoland 08:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The line "When a man lies, he murders some part of the world" is taken from the film "Excalibur" (1981). Merlin speaks this line.

I didn't see Merlin given a writing credit in MY AJFA booklet, so I'd just assume Burton knew about it and used it without James and Lars knowing where it was from so they just cited burton, becuase of Burton's unfortunate Death they had forgotten to cite Merlin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.209.246.225 (talk) 01:55, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

This was played live on February 3, 1989; Erwin Events Center, Austin, TX. Check this link, it from metallica themselves.  Weltanschaunng 08:07, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

cover description is wrong
just nitpicking but it says one of the breasts is exposed. Actually, if you look closly, she's wearing a bra. It is still covered technically. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.57.184 (talk) 22:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

dyer's eve
Does anyone know why the song stops all of a sudden @ 5:13? O_o Vlame 03:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Vlame

I think I read somewhere the sudden abrupt end was to signify the sudden end of Cliff's life at a young age.

No, that was 'To live is to die.' The acoustic part at the end was cut short, supposedly to signify the premature end of Cliff's life. Dyers eve plays out like a normal song. At least it does for me. It was a harsh progressive song. Probably ended like that for aesthetic reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.64.234.155 (talk) 21:50, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

If you notice, 'Blackened' too stops very abruptly. 117.195.32.163 (talk) 17:25, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Bass and the mix
"As said by the band in their magazine SO WHAT!, they wish that they could re-mix the entire album because the drums and guitar overpower the bass completely. Some believe this is because Jason Newsted was new to the band and they wanted to frustrate him" Why would they want to frustrate their new bassist? Any ideas? I always thought it was just their egos at that time demanded they be really high in the mix rather than a deliberate ploy to annoy Jason. OAP boba 11:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It could be nonsense but I've read that Hetfield and Ulrich didn't want Newstead taking over the band like Cliff did. I can't remember where I read this so it is technically just a point of view. Paul Tew 09:59, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Hetfield and Ulrich were frustrated with Jason Newsted's inability to recreate Cliff's unique playing patterns, causing them to turn the bass down, but not completely off, throughout the album. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.164.9.233 (talk • contribs).


 * I would have to agree 100% with the p.o.v. that Jason Newsted just didn't have the talent or the passion & soul to play like Cliff. Anyone who has half a brain & an ear for music can tell that he did not play bass at all on this album. Actually, after listening to this album since its initial release & after all these years, I can honestly say that I have NEVER heard any bass lines whatsoever. AND, I feel that too many people mistaken the low end of the rythmn guitar & bass drum for the bass parts. It's just a shame that Metallica has never had the integrity & balls to own up to this... guppusmaximus 09:59, 03 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually if you get the versions of the songs on Rock Band you can actually hear the bass parts (you even get to play them) and they definitely add to the songs. This is in effect the 'remix' they say they wish they could do. I don't know why they have to wish...remix the damn thing already! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.188.169 (talk) 12:53, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, people have ripped the individual audio tracks from these games and remixed them to enhance the bass. (These tracks are all over Youtube, so you can listen to them right now.) They did the same thing with Death Magnetic, because the tracks in the Guitar Hero 3 DLC of this album did not have the horrible compression that the actual album did. So the question is, as stated by other posters, if Metallica wants to remix the 'And Justice' album, why don't they? Apparently, Rush is doing it with Vapor Trails, so this isn't exactly unheard of. 75.55.119.64 (talk) 05:50, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Live performance
Just wondering if anyone has a source for the first paragraph. I don't remember hearing that anywhere else, and I have a sneaking suspicion that the person Kirk was quoting was Jason Newsted. HexaDecimal 16:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge from The Shortest Straw
The Shortest Straw was proposed for deletion with no opposition for the required 5 days, with the reason "doesn't meet notability requirements. Can be merged with the album article." With that in mind, I decided not to delete the article but to propose the merge using the correct procedure. Any discussion around the proposed merge should take place here. Waggers 11:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

cover
wheres the damn cover?

Trends
I added a mention of the instrumental tracks on Ride, Master, and Justice having a close proximity to a song about religion. It's a little lengthy, but I'm kind of tired so I couldn't really think of any way to more concisely convey the trend. If anyone else can shorten up the paragraph and retain enough information to fully explain everything, feel free to help me out. That, or let me know if it's fine the way it is.

Influence on Proggressive Metal
It should be noted that the album is referenced in some progressive metal circles. Obviosly the song structures, tempo and time signature changees was upped from Ride and Master. Thrash bands like Metallica and Megadeth focused on the proggresive side of thrash, (in the 80's though), a link to give some insight is here, by ALL MUSIC GUIDE http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:2952 On the same token, they also describe the song one, quite fittingly, as progressive thrash. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.191.160.26 (talk) 00:04, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, progressive metal describes it well. I'll add it with your source and another source of mine. If anyone disagrees, then please explain. thx. 142.162.204.246 (talk) 13:59, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * An influence doesn't mean they are prog metal. And the ref itself doesn't say that. Iron Maiden influenced power metal and prog metal both but didn;t actually play it. same goes here. 156.34.221.33 (talk) 14:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, digitaldreamdoor is just an amateur fansite and can't be used as a reference for anything. The entire page is just the website owners opinion and does not meet WP:V and WP:CITE standards. 156.34.221.33 (talk) 14:06, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

All music guide didnt say they were an influence though. it say they (or should I say, this album) is.

142.162.204.246 (talk) 14:11, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * AMG says And Justice for All has similarities with some prog metal albums, they didn't say it is one. If you look at this album's review, progressive metal isn't listed as a style. Funeral 14:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * AMG says "At the time, prog-metal was fairly underground (although such Metallica albums as And Justice for All were as dense and layered as prog albums), and it remained that way throughout the '90s."

142.162.204.246 (talk) 14:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's exactly my point. Funeral 14:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

When did you say they were a progressive metal band?

142.162.204.246 (talk) 14:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "although such Metallica albums as And Justice for All were as dense and layered as prog albums" - Ok, so And Justice for All is as similarly layered and dense as some prog metal albums, according to All Music. They didn't say "And Justice for All is a progressive metal album", they pointed out two similarities that it has with some prog metal albums. Funeral 14:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

You win. I'm wrong. I actually admitted it, unlike some people on here

142.162.204.246 (talk) 14:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

the reason i first mentioned this and created this section was to somehow, re-bring the previous description of this article. Not only by professional reviewers, but many fans agree that, as was stated on the previous article, 'the apex in the band's development of the thrash metal style'. At least I thought that it was a rather good description of the album, excluding the recording. All Music Guide describes an interpretation of the album of 1-2 things, as 'over-ambititous/bloated' or the 'pinnacle of Metallica's proggresive years'. Rolling Stone, surprisingly, also reviewed or approached the same way, even to the point of saying that the band's chops would impress 'even the most elitist jazz-fusion aficionado'. With the releases of the black album, and certainly load and re-load, most of the public perceives the band based on those albums. Most of casual listeners either don't know, or 'forgot', that Metallica made albums in rather epic scales. As far as the tag of hard rock in Metallica albums in All Music Guide, it became clear that the band would become extremely popular during the 90's, so much that they were able to trancend from metal to hard rock. So na, the band was never in the niche of progressive metal, nor even 'pure' thrash (some people define this genre sole to some bands style, ranging from a melodic sound to the opposite end of the spectrum of chaotic music, like Slayer) in the 80's, rather they played a diverse mixture of fast, melodic, conplex, progressive, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Book5rings47 (talk • contribs) 17:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

While this is definitely a thrash metal album, I would also agree with progressive metal. Most of the songs on this album are pretty lengthy and progressive. I don't see the problem with this being added as a genre next to thrash metal. 68.102.235.239 (talk) 21:12, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Bridges of it are long enough to be classified as prog metal, but only secondary.

Drum Sound
Though the drum sounds weird, I guess this part is totally unnecessary, "(eg. a New Zealand 50 cent coin taped to the bass drum for when the beater head hits, providing the "Metallica click;" this will provide the sound but damage the drum skin quickly)". Weltanschaunng 07:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)