Talk:.45 Colt

Untitled
Folks, could we indicate that this is a centerfire cartridge (if that is true), discuss its primer, and its rim characteristics.

MORE: Although very good to have to side view of the cartridge, note that a good reference (e.g., Smith) also include the breach end of the cartridge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:184:C501:DEB0:6CA7:DCDB:D32F:B0C8 (talk) 05:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Safe Loads
''
 * They should only be used in modern large-frame shotguns such as the Ruger Blackhawk, any gun firing the .454 Casull cartridge, or single-shot hunting pistols and rifles chambered for the cartridge.''

The last part of this sentence confuses me. Is it safe to load beefed-up .45 colt rounds into ANY .45 colt chambered rifle, such as a lever action Ruger or Winchester, or only single-shot rifles? I think they would mean the former because I've never seen a single-shot .45 Colt rifle, but I have seen alot of .45 Colt lever actions. 75.75.110.235 17:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It may not be safe in other rifles, single-shot rifles typically have very strong actions. It's best to know the pressure levels when doing such experimentation. Single-shot rifles would include things like the NEF and T/C. Arthurrh 22:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * That used to be true when the rifles in town were Winchester 1892 (And Rossi-made replicas), and Winchester 94/Marlin 1894 lever-actions. The 94/1894 actions could handle up to 35,000 PSI, and a brand-new Rossi/Legacy 1892 could handle up to 40,000-50,000 PSI.  And an NEF break-open rifle will handle similar pressures.  I'm not sure about the newer Browning Hi or Low-Wall rifles, but given he other cartridges they're chambered for, I'd probably trust them to handle Marlin-level loads.  However, the replica rifles aimed at the CAS folk, like the Winchester 1873 replicas sold by Uberti and the others . . . they can't handle any more than the 14,000 PSI SAAMI spec, and probably shouldn't be used extensively with more than the 12,000 PSI level Cowboy Action loads.GMT 14:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * So to reiterate, when using non Arthurrh 20:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Black Powder Performance?
How can you guys honestly say the .45LC "develops 566 ft/lbs energy at a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps" from the listed Black Powder load? The smokeless loads on the sidebar only go to 522 ft/lbs? Also, they built the Colt "express" pump gun and a lever-action for .45 LC. EDIT: So did a couple others (original 19th-century guns, I mean.)68.231.189.108 (talk) 13:15, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Colt never chambered a rifle in this caliber.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 18:16, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

The Wiki article Says: ".44-40 only in original Colt; .45 LC in reproductions"; but I swear I saw one at a gun show, an original, said:"45 Colt" on it. I will look closer at the next one, but I know Wiki is wrong. Why would Colt Not chamber a rifle for .45LC? It made sense....68.231.189.108 (talk) 13:15, 21 October 2009 (UTC)68.231.189.108 (talk) 13:10, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * No, it does not make sense. Because of the size of the rim on 45 Colt, it was not suitable as a rifle cartridge.  It was chambered in reproductions much later by Winchester, Marlin, Rossi, etc because of the popularity of Cowboy Action Shooting, but the fact remains that Colt never chambered a rifle in this caliber.  See the article on the Colt Lightning Rifle.  Wiki is not wrong on this, you are. --Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 13:28, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

No. The rim on the .44-40 was even bigger--.525" compared to .512" wide on the .45LC. Also:The rims on the .50-95, .45-85,  etc, were even bigger. Yet repeaters were made for them--1876, 1886 Winchester, etc. It was the Length of cartridge, not the rim, that prevented good-handling tube magazine repeaters from taking such  more popular rounds as the .45-70,.45-90,.50-100, etc. That's why these shorter ones were introduced for tube-fed levers and pump guns--not the rims. Rims are a hassle only in box-magazine repeaters, like Moisin-Nagants, SMLE's, Krags, Win. '95's, etc. You contradict yourself: "not suitable as a rifle cartridge." Yet you then say: "chambered much later...by Winchester, Marlin, Rossi (Uberti)..." So, if it were impractical, why was a rifle Ever made for it? I mentioned the Wiki article on this; please read before replying next time. Wiki has been very wrong before, as anyone may edit. No need to get personal--address the issue, please. I will look at the next ones I see--and, originals, not repros.'Till then, no more armchair comments, please. Still, Wiki hasn't addressed my original issuer--the 566 ft/lb pressure load mentioned must be Smokeless Powder.68.231.189.108 (talk) 13:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * No, I do not. The rim was too small to be effective in a rifle at the time. Due to extraction, etc.  Length has nothing to do with it: .44-40 is closer in length, all the express cartridges of the time were much longer and the 22's much shorter.  Modern technology made chambering somewhat better and for the purposes of the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting where having a pistol and carbine chambered in the same caliber makes it safer and more convenient.  I made those edits and they are backed up by reliable sources.  I've worked in the arms industry my entire adult life and write articles based on reliable sources, not based on gibberish or dubious facts pulled out of my ass about gunshow merchandise.  Call Colt and speak to the Archivist if you don't believe me, or pick up a book and actually read it.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 13:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

You said: "Because of the size of  the rim". Did you mean too Big or too Small? You did not say why in your first post. Don't tell me to read; you didn't obviously read my second post when I referenced the Wiki article. I have owned and handled guns 40 years;I don't care about your claim to work in the arms  industry;  when I said I saw an original Colt in /45LC; I'm not lying   just to bodda you. Why would I in God's name do That? I'd rather argue with anti-gunners. I will get a serial number next time. Possibly it was reworked by a gunsmith, I don't know. Neither would the seller; we are talking guns about 100 years old. Maybe that made it not Originally chambered at the factory for .45 LC, a very moot point. Colt also, made a Lever--I don't remember what calibers. So did a few others in .45 Colt (originals, I mean.)This is what the article contradicts--"no repeaters in .45LC"; yet I've seen an "express" pump and there were some others, like I said, that did. I only referenced cartridge length and even bigger rims because you didn't clarify what was wrong with the rim; I thought you were confused. And, this extraction stuff--the Mauser brothers made magazine rifles as far back as 1882 for rimless cartridges--so don't tell me rounds  need  big rims to extract. Maybe Colt's poor engineering and machining capabilities in those days prevented it, but cartridge's don't need an actual rim; just a cannelure or groove. Why don't you argue about that Black powder pressure load--no one has addressed my original point, yet, to that obvious flaw-?68.231.189.108 (talk) 14:20, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Never said you were lying, pard, don't put words in my mouth. FACT: Colt only made one cartridge rifle until they started making AR-15's, that was the Lightning. FACT: Colt never chambered a lever-action rifle in 45 Colt. FACT: Winchester didn't start chambering the 1894 in 45 Colt until late in the 20th Century. FACT: Colt never chambered the Lightning in 45 Colt (check the article I have every caliber they made by the numbers...call RL Wilson or John Taffin and ask them if you still don't believe me. Is it possible one of these rifles could have been rechambered and remarked by a Smith for 45 Colt?  Yes.  Do I think that's what you saw? No.  AWA makes a lightning repro that looks identical to the Colt.  I saw a casehardened nitre blued one that I'll say looks better than 90% of the pristine lightnings I've seen.  Doesn't make it a Colt, though or 100+ years old.  Living in the West I've seen my share of forged/counterfeit SAA's...so there's probably a few folks doing the same to the rifles.  As to the rim, we're talking lever action and pump action rifles, not bolt actions.  Blame late 19th Century engineering and lack of demand.  If you have problems with the load data...look at the source. Make the change if you must, but have a reference to back up your claim.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

The rim on the older .45 Colt cases was simply too small. Older revolver cartridge cases often used what was known as "balloon-head" construction, and thus, an extraction groove/cannelure could not be added without reducing case capacity. --D.E. Watters (talk) 17:43, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I came across more than one source indicating that the earliest military .45 Colt cartridge cases used .505-.506" rims. That is smaller than even the current production cases.  --D.E. Watters (talk) 04:36, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

The point. .45 Colt repeating rifles were not offered in the black powder era. Successful black powder rifle and pistol combo cartridges for lever-action and pump-action rifles and revolvers (.44-40. .38-40) had two characteristics that made them suitable for long term use in rifles: thick rims for positive extraction, tapered casings for smooth feeding, especially in rifle barrel firing chambers fouled from black powder, bullet lube, lead shavings. The .45 Colt revolver cartridge head spaced on the thinnest rim suitable for that purpose only, was extracted by a push rod, and the case had straight sides with no taper; great black powder revolver cartridge, but not a good choice for a black powder cartridge rifle. The only reason we see successful lever-action and pump-action repro cowboy rifles in .45 Colt is clean modern smokeless powder and cowboy action shooters who want to simply their rifle/revolver ammo logistics. --Naaman Brown (talk) 14:42, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008
Article reassessed and graded as start class. Referencingand appropriate inline citation guidelines not met. --dashiellx (talk) 20:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

.45 Colt cartridge adopted in 1875
I can read: This cartridge was adopted by the U.S. Army in 1875 and served as the official US military handgun cartridge for 17 years.

The first Colt SAA revolvers were shipped to the US-Govt. September 1873, 1874 all the Cav. Regiments were equipped with SAAs, Frankford Arsenal produced .45 cartridges for Colt Revolvers in November 1873. Question: Why the Govt. adopted the .45 Colt cartridge only in 1875? hmaag (talk) 14:49, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Casualty of intermittent vandalism or gun shop commando? I just changed it.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 15:25, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Blackpowder ballistics
The ballistics data should show some blackpowder loads. --Phil1988 (talk) 18:40, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That could be dangerous for someone not used to loading black powder cartridges. Black powder loads simply fill the case with no airspace.   They are never measured by weight, always by volume.  DrHenley (talk) 11:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Patent
The statements attributed to reference #4, Mike Venturino's 1998 article, don't seem quite right, as Mike V. stated "...no 1800s-vintage repeating rifles were chambered for .45 Colt caliber for technological reasons." Nothing was mentioned about Rim size/type or Patent infringement there. Maybe there is another source from the same author. Also, the logic in those statements need clarification - "The reason was...., in fact...." implies that there is not one reason but two, and that only the second reason may be factual? It might be an easier read if article started with the right reason stated first and other hypothesis or conjecture later, (with sources). 144.183.31.2 (talk) 20:40, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Colt
I've noticed an error on page one. Under the picture of the .45 Colt is the description of the bullet parts used in .45 Colt. The caption reads ‘Bullet diameter .454(lead), .452(jacketed)’. A bit further down the page the bullet size is listed as ‘ .451 inches in diameter for jacketed bullets, and .452 for lead bullets.’ I believe that in the same article, the sizes listed should be the same. It depends on the firearm and the application that different bullet sizes be decided. Bullet sizes range from .451 to .454, but the application determines bullet diameter.

Reference: Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, 8th Edition, pages 1005 to 1010.

Thank you G Walrath Gerald Walrath (talk) 20:09, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

First Section. If a person were to follow some of the statement in the first section...
they would be likely to blow up a handgun and perhaps kill themselves. .45 LC is a 14,000 psi blackpowder load. There is NO such thing as a magnum level load for this caliber. There have been very ill advised cartridges which could be used in only two modern firearms (Ruger and Thompson) which far exceed safe pressure levels for the majority of .45 LC chambered handguns.

The Ruger Blackhawk and the Thompson contender are the only two firearms that can withstand the high pressure loads. This should be in a separate section, not mentioned as if it was common. If someone suffers an injury from this (which can be seen in photos of exploded revolvers all over the internet, the author of this article can be held liable as well as wikipedia itself. Digitallymade (talk) 16:40, 23 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Every loading manual I have and the online loading manuals by powder manufacturers all list two different sections for 45 Colt. One suitable for Single Action Army and other weak actions, and another for strong actions.  And they specify which strong actions. Nobody should should be handloading without a manual. Wikipedia is NOT a handloading manual!  I REPEAT - Wikipedia is NOT a handloading manual!


 * I load 45 Colt for Ruger Super Blackhawk revolvers designed to handle the 44 Magnum. There are also Super Blackhawks in 454 Casull (65,000 PSI max!) and 480 Ruger.  Note, unlike the Blackhawk, the Ruger New Vaquero has to be treated as a weak action.  Rifles also fall in to strong and weak actions with the toggle link Winchesters and Henrys falling into the weak action category.   Handloading requires more than just a modicum of due diligence on the part of the hand loader.  If someone isn't willing to do their homework they should not handload...period! DrHenley (talk) 16:15, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

M1887 wrong link
In the initial paragraph of the article, the final line which is supposed to refer to the adoption of the .45 M1887 Military Ball Cartridge instead links to the article on the Winchester 1887 Shotgun. Thought I'd point it out. I'm quite new to Wikipedia so I'd thought I'd point it out so someone with more knowledge of how to edit wikipedia article could fix it. - Joe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Calibrez37 (talk • contribs) 20:29, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Cartridges of the World misquote
The article misquotes Cartridges of the World. It does not categorically state that ".45 Colt should never be loaded to more than 800 fps." What it actually says is "Blackpowder revolvers should not be used with any load developing more than about 800 fps muzzle velocity." - direct quote. So I added "in blackpowder revolvers" to clarify that statement. DrHenley (talk) 15:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

History
There are some errors in History. The .45 Colt cartridge used in the trials had a 255gr bullet over 40 grains of black powder. The .45 Colt cartridge issued by the Frankford Arsenal in 1874 had a reduced loading of 30 grains of black powder under a 250 grain bullet. The Frankford Arsenal stopped production of that cartridge on August 20, 1873. The replacement cartridge introduced by the Frankford Arsenal, "Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45", in early 1874 was not the .45 S&W (Schofield). It was a compromise cartridge. The case was the same length as the .45 S&W, but with a reduced rim, to allow 6 rounds to be chambered in both revolvers. The standard rim on the .45 S&W was too large to permit 6 rounds to be chambered, only 3 or 4 could be chambered in the 1873 Colt. The original rim on the .45 Colt was too narrow to allow reliable ejection from the S&W Model 3.

The new cartridge was loaded with 28 grains of black powder and used a 230 grain bullet. In 1882, the compromise cartridge was modified to be Boxer primed instead of Berdan primed. The final iteration was the M1887 ball cartridge, not the M1882 (typo?).

The M1909 cartridge was a smokeless cartridge using a 250 grain bullet and rated for 275 FPS +/- 25 FPS.

I don't know how much to include with out getting too far off-topic. Rklute (talk) 23:03, 2 February 2024 (UTC)