Talk:0845 number

0845
Cost of calling 0845 numbers according to BT web site BT Pricing: Non-geographic numbers from August 1 2007. Daytime 2ppm, evenings 0.5ppm. No weekend rate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.168.115.152 (talk) 10:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've updated the prices - thanks for the heads up. [Jam][talk] 10:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Note: The 2ppm/0.5ppm prices for 0845s only apply to certain BT packages. If you are on BT but not subscribed to one of those packages, you will pay approximately double that (3.9ppm peak/1ppm off-peak).

Nevertheless, I would still disagree with the wording in the opening paragraphs that describe 0845 as "revenue sharing" and "premium rate". Only very large companies with massive call volume will ever get any revenue share from 0845s; most businesses use them because they are free for them to use. "Premium rate" is a flat lie: The term premium rate applies to charges greater than 10ppm from a BT landline (and usually much more); 0845s are nowhere near that. Spudley (talk) 14:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Various points in no particular order:
 * The cost of calling an 0845 number includes a 2p/min revenue share premium. Your phone company passes the 2p/min premium on to the phone company of the business you are calling. Whether they then pass it along to the business is another matter, and one that is irrelevant to the caller. The revenue share is from your phone company to the other phone company.
 * Calling 0845 numbers from a BT landline is a special case. Anticipating that Ofcom would remove revenue share from 0845 as they had done for 0870, BT made 0845 calls inclusive in 2009. Ofcom didn't proceed with the 0845 plan, so BT is now stuck with paying out the revenue share for calls which they give away at zero cost within inclusive minutes.
 * The forthcoming re-arrangements to 08 numbers will likely return 0870 to revenue sharing (possibly aligned with 0871 and 0872 rates?), and will also likely align 0845 revenue sharing with 0844 and 0843 rates, or at least confirm the same revenue share mechanism. At the same time, the Consumer Rights Directive will force large numbers of users of 084 and 087 numbers to move to 034 and 037 where revenue sharing is not permitted and call costs are aligned with calls to 01 and 02.
 * 084 and 087 numbers are premium rate in as much as the call cost includes a premium which you pay (special case involving BT and 0845 noted) and which your phone company passes on. Descibing them as premium rate in no way interferes with the regulated Premium Rate Services (PRS) descriptor which applies to 090 and 091 numbers.
 * Ofcom/PhonepayPlus have muddied the waters by introducing extra regulation to 0871, 0872 and 0873. It is likely that will be extended to 0870 and it is possible it will be extended to 084. If that happens, all 084, 087, 090 and 091 numbers will officially be "Premium Rate Services" (PRS). At present 084 numbers are merely "premium rate" "revenue share" numbers with much less regulation than official PRS numbers.
 * Many users of 0845 numbers are unaware that their phone company is raking off 2p/min from every call to their business, and a higher amount for other 084 and for 087 numbers. The changes coming soon, in the form of "unbundled tariffs", will provide greater price transparency for all parties.
 * Finally, nothing beginning 084 or 087 can be described as "local rate" or "national rate" as most callers call 01 and 02 numbers nationwide for up to one hour at zero incremental cost. Where 01 and 02 calls are chargeable, there is one call rate nationwide with no discount for "local" calls. This change happened in 2005. - 212.139.110.246 (talk) 13:39, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

0844
This cost of calls to 0844 can be higher, lower or the same as 0845. Would be helpful to have 0844 incorporated into the article too.

More specifically, the cost of 0844 can range from 0.5ppm to 5ppm, depending on the range.

Differences between the two: 0844: A range of different prices. 0845: All 0845 numbers are the same price.

0844: A given number is always the same price. 0845: The price changes depending on the time of the call, between peak and off-peak rates.

Additionally, if 0844s are mentioned, it should also be added that 0843s are currently being introduced, which will operate in the same way as 0844. (this is because Ofcom is running out of 0844 numbers).

Spudley (talk) 14:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Various points, in no particular order:
 * There are four types of 0844 (and 0843, 0871, 0872) number:
 * Fixed cost per call (rare!)
 * Fixed pence per minute rate
 * Fixed pence per minute rate plus a call setup fee
 * Pence per minute rate that varies: day, evening, weekend (rare!).
 * Within each of the above there are various levels up to 5p inc VAT (4.3p without VAT) for 0843 and 0844 numbers.
 * Similarly there are various levels up to 10p inc VAT (8.8p without VAT) for 0871 and 0872 numbers.
 * You need all 6 digits after the 0 to find out which of the four types it is and to find the level of revenue share premium included in the retail call price.
 * Ofcom use confusing wording for 0843, 0844, 0871, 0872 numbers. They quote the rates as being "the retail call price for BT customers, other providers may charge more". It is more correct to say:
 * The quoted rates are the revenue share premium that all callers pay, and
 * BT is not allowed to add a markup to the call price, but other landline operators and all mobile operators can add on whatever unregulated markup they like.
 * 0843/0844 and 0845 numbers are not all that different to each other:
 * 0843/0844:
 * 0843/0844 numbers have a range of revenue share premiums, but the premium is fixed for a particular phone number irrespective of how that number is called.
 * Landline operators add a fixed markup (BT = 0p/min, Virgin = 5p/min, etc) to all 0843 and 0844 numbers.
 * 0845:
 * 0845 numbers are all approx. 2p/min revenue share premium, but different operators have negotiated slightly different rates among themselves and which are secret.
 * Landline operators add their markup to bring the call price for 0845 up to the nominal equivalent of an inflated "local" call price to a geographic number as paid by a customer without inclusive minutes to geographic numbers.
 * BT used to mark up 0845 calls to a nominal "local" call price for a customer without inclusive minutes; however, since 2009 BT cross-subsidises calls to 0845 numbers and gives them away free in "inclusive" minutes.
 * In a simpler fashion, CP = RS + M (where Call Price = Revenue Share + Markup):
 * For 0843 and 0844 numbers:
 * RS varies by number called (0.8p to 4.3p for 0843 and 0844 and 4.3p to 8.8p for 0871 and 0872) but is always the same for any particular number.
 * Each landline operator sets M as they see fit but usually each operator sets the same value M for all 0843 and 0844 numbers and another (or the same) value for M for all 0871 and 0872 numbers.
 * Each landline operator sets a different value for M, and BT is regulated to set it to 0p/min.
 * CP therefore varies according to the actual 0843 or 0844 number dialled, and varies according to the landline provider used to make the call.
 * For 0845 numbers:
 * CP is set to the nomimal (some might say ficitious) "local" call price from landlines and RS just happens to be about 2p/min but varies according to the secret deals done between operators. M is whatever is left over.
 * BT gives 0845 calls away as inclusive minutes, but still has to pay the 2p/min revenue share premium onwards. BT doesn't markup those calls, they subsidise them.
 * CP is therefore the same for all 0845 numbers when called from the same landline provider, but varies by provider.
 * Mobile calls are unregulated, and the consumer loses out:
 * Mobile operators tend to charge the same rate (usually about 30p to 40p/min) for all 084 and 087 numbers irrespective of whether the revenue share is 0.8p/min or 8.8p/min. Some mobile operators charge slightly less for 0845 and 0870 than for the others. A few charge slightly more for 0871 and 0872 than for 0843 and 0844.
 * Mobile operators usually set a fixed CP per prefix (eg. for 0844 or for 0871). This means that M is somewhere between 3 and 44 times the value of RS depending on the number called (you could be charged 45p/min for calling a number with 0.8p/min revenue share or with 8.8p/min revenue share; another mobile operator might charge both calls at 25p/min).
 * The cost of calling 084 and 087 numbers from mobiles is often higher for contract customers than for pay as you talk customers, but both are excessive.
 * Where a business chooses a number with a low revenue share premium, mobile operators do not reflect that in the call price charged to caller; they merely absorb the difference as extra profit.
 * Ofcom's "unbundled tariff" proposal will force greater price transparency:
 * The markup will become clear, as each provider will have to state what it is. It will also become easier to compare providers.
 * Mobile operators will change to a fixed markup per prefix rather than the current fixed price for all calls. Currently the price from mobiles is both over-inflated and ignores the actual level of premium included within the call price.
 * 084 and 087 users will have to declare the revenue share premium (even if they don't actually receive it as cashback from their phone supplier).
 * The argument that a number isn't revenue share unless the called business receives a payment, is specious. The revenue share is between your phone company and the phone company that supplies telephone service to the called business and all callers pay it.
 * The unbundled tariff will awaken many users of premium rate revenue share numbers to the fact that their number is actually a revenue share number. It may jolt some into asking their supplier where the revenue share money goes. Some suppliers neglect to mention that aspect of the process when supplying 084 numbers to businesses. - 212.139.110.246 (talk) 16:22, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

084
Ofcom plans to make "084" the lower rate number. When the details are finalised, this should be reflected in the article. User Abut 13:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

This is not correct: 084 numbers are *already* at the lower rate described in the linked article. There are unlikely to be any further changes to 084* numbers. There will be changes to 087* numbers, and also the addition of a new range (03*), which is currently being introduced. Spudley (talk) 14:28, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

saynoto0870.com
See the talk page for saynoto0870.com for the discussion on the inclusion of this link. -- [Jam][talk] 12:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

03
The new 03 number ranges will begin to be available starting from November 2007. These have been given a pricing structure that is required to match the geographic 01 and 02 ranges (including being included in any bundled minutes packages). 0845 and other existing 08 numbers will continue to operate, but the expectation in the industry is that 03 numbers will quickly replace 0845 in the minds of businesses and consumers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spudley (talk • contribs) 16:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Three mobile network
To call an 0845 number from the mobile network "Three" or "3" it is 15p a minute. Adamfawcett 20:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your message. The page already says it costs 15p from a 3 mobile. [Jam][talk] 21:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality
It strikes me that the tone of the opening paragraph of this article is somewhat weighted. Not sure if this is because someone intended to quote or reference some sources, or just has an axe to grind. Tafkam (talk) 22:00, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think someone recently added the new paragraph and I haven't had chance to read it through and alter / remove parts of it that seemed a non-neutral POV. Feel free to remove/re-word it to be more neutral if you want. [Jam][talk] 23:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge with 0870 number
I suggest a merge with the 0870 number and Non-geographical telephone numbers in the UK articles - There is a lot of duplication, and the Non-geographical telephone numbers in the UK appears to be the better base to start from. Birkett (talk) 09:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. All the articles for different numbers (0870, 0845, 0844, etc.) should be merged into one article, maybe even as part of Telephone numbers in the United Kingdom. Redirects can be made from individual numbers, but I don't see a need for a separate article for each number.  J Rawle  (Talk) 10:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Support - that seems to make sense to me, and would be a good opportunity to deal with the neutrality and bias issues that see tags in all locations. I have put merge tags on the relevant pages (including that for 03 numbers), directing discussion to here. Tafkam (talk) 14:24, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support as per my comments on the 0870 number talk page.  [Jam] [talk] 18:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support  fr33k man   -s-  23:53, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have merged this article into Non-geographical telephone numbers in the UK as per the consensus here.  fr33k man   -s-  23:53, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I am also in agreement as it will cause confusion which is the last thing we need with this number range(Intelesis (talk) 14:40, 25 December 2009 (UTC))