Talk:13 States

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The USA became independent on July 2, 1776, with the Declaration approved on July 4. The Declaration clearly says "United States of America" -- this was the new country's birthday. Rjensen 19:14, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Please show me where in the Lee Resolution (which was only passed by 12 of the 13 colonies) it mentions the "United States". The Declaration says "the thirteen united States of America".  And also says: "these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political Connection between them and the State of Great-Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which INDEPENDENT STATES may of right do."  Please, let's be clear about these matters.  --JW1805 (Talk) 21:16, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * the USA became independent on July 2 and took its new name July 4, which is always celebrated as the official national birthday. I might add that newborn often are named a few days after birth! Rjensen 22:20, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * So, this is your own POV, or do you have sources for this? --JW1805 (Talk) 01:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No POV--it's straight from Morris, Encyclopedia of American History (1976). Morris is a leading expert on the era. The suggestion that the 13 colonies lived on past 1776 is Loyalist POV I suppose---the notion that the USA was created in 1781 is not in any textbook. Rjensen 01:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Is this article necessary

 * I think this article is unnecessary, and probably a POV fork. There isn't really anything here that wouldn't better be located at Thirteen Colonies.  There is plenty of room there to mention how the colonies revolted from GB and became "States".  --JW1805 (Talk) 21:18, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * We have numerous articles that reference the 13 colonies when they actually mean the 13 original states. And there are many correct references to the 13 original states that can link here for a listing. So let's keep it. Note that back in 1976 we had the "Bicentennial Council of the Thirteen Original States" . As for POV--well it's a POV held by millions and needs to be represented. Is there some OTHER POV here? then it can be represented too. Wiki says that all serious POVs have to be included. Rjensen 22:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


 * But the point is that the "thirteen colonies" and the "thirteen original states" were the same entities. They kicked out the royal governors, but Virginia was still Virginia, and New York was still New York.  The list of one is the same list as the other.  There isn't any need to create a separate article about them, just because one editor has a bee in his bonnet.  There is no information here that isn't (or couldn't be) at Thirteen Colonies.  --JW1805 (Talk) 23:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that there is little point to having two separate articles. It does smack of a POV fork. older ≠ wiser 04:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

13 colonies all dead in 1776
The history of the 13 colonies ended in 1776. But the 13 original states lived on and passed the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation and Constitution. Surely that is activity enough for an article. Rjensen 01:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Bollocks. The colonies "declared" independence in 1776. The independence was not formally recognized until 1783. There is clearly an overlapping period during the revolution when the status was indeterminate and depended on which side you were on at the time. Perhaps Thirteen colonies is not the best name for the article, but it is stupidity to insist on having separate articles on such something so closely related. older ≠ wiser 04:59, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Totally agree. This article is pointless and should be redirected to Thirteen Colonies, which is the proper term, because it is the most widely used term to describe these entities.  "The Thirteen States" doesn't have any special meaning, and could refer to any 13 states, but "The Thirteen Colonies" means only one thing, the founding members of the USA.    --JW1805 (Talk) 17:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)