Talk:1928 Florida Gators football team

Roster structure
Given the fact that virtually the entire 1928 team played both ways, as was typical in the 1920s, and further given the remarkable interchangeability of '28 Gators backs (QBs, FBs, HBs), I think an alphabetized list segmented by linemen and backfield makes a lot of sense here. The only question is: what to do with the ends? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:54, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Ends were linemen; cf. "defensive end". Dividing things by line and backs is very typical of the period; goes back to Stagg. In fact I've thought to ask for parameters for line coach and backfield coach for articles years before O and D coordinators. PS Where did you get Van Sickel's jersey number?Cake (talk) 21:13, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I guess the ends were all down linemen in that era; no separate category for "receivers". Combination of modern defensive end, defensive back, tight end and wide receiver.  Had to be a hell of an athlete to play the position.  I'm pretty sure you were the source for DVS's jersey number; either that, or I got it from his CFHOF profile.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:22, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes; they were all "tight ends". The term "split end" recalls the evolution from end to receiver. On defense, either at end (of course) or linebacker was typical; and the equivalent of a prevent defense in that era was sending your ends back in pass protection with the backs. The 7–2–2 defense was all about fast, blitzing ends. Plenty of the good ones were sent into the backfield to kick or pass as well (try to play all of Lynn Bomar's positions) - it's no wonder one sees lots of coaches having been ends, or do-it-alls stuck at end. I see the hall does not have Van Sickel's number; I must double check where I found it. Cake (talk) 21:30, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Photo selection
Cake, the standing group photo of the '28 backfield players is perfect. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:54, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, it takes little effort to pick a photo, but glad it pleased you. If only the quality were better. I chose the best available. A bit curious how to stick in Johnny Bryson (the shortest player on the team). It is said he was a back, which you'd expect, but he's not one of the 12 pictured, and not in the team picture either. Cake (talk) 21:15, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately the pictures of Crabtree and the Four in the online yearbook are much too blurry. Also found one of the original for Crabtree but again the black-and-white newspaper cut out is less blurry. There are some great photos of forward passes in the top banner across the yearbook, but no way for me to tell the game. Also, interesting to note there are multiple team pictures aside from the one in the yearbook, with the players in the same order but including the coaches, e. g. here. Here is Bachman coaching up Bowyer and Steele, and here is Tigert at some 1928 game. Cake (talk) 15:25, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Honors and awards vs. "Post-season", etc.
These two sections are apparently redundant, and I suggest combining non-duplicate contents under "Honors and awards". The header "Post-season", without more, is misleading. Also, Van Sickel was the only first-team All-American in 1928, but three other players received second-team or third-team honors (Crabtree, McRae, Steele) -- see List of Florida Gators football All-Americans. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:13, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Tried to fix the section headings - you can do more if it still bothers you. I knew that about first-team, but revised that part if it was unclear. You might check the 1923 All-America team to see how Billy Evans paid attention to southern writers. Cake (talk) 14:43, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Works for me, Cake. I whacked the redundant list of "Honors and awards" at the bottom of the article; you had already rolled everything into the "Honors and awards" subsection of "Post-season".  I also added the missing All-American honors for Van Sickel, Crabtree, McRae and Steele, with appropriate footnotes.  Oddly, the media guide misses the AA honors for Crabtree, McRae and Steele, and a couple of selectors for Van Sickel, too.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:48, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Myths and legends
At some point, we need to directly address and dispel two of the major myths and legends of '28, including the Rose Bowl rumors (not true), and the "watering" of Watkins Field (apparently not true). In both cases, there are interview quotes from Gators players and Charlie Bachman contradicting those myths years after the fact. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:13, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, we do. In that era rain was the great neutralizer, and it seems when upset in the rain teams would often claim the other one watered the field. It seems the Tennessee section addresses it (I think you wrote it) but feel free to expand upon it, especially if there are quotes. The Rose Bowl should (hopefully) be simple enough: we were holding out for a Georgia Tech loss, and few would've disputed UF as co-champions had we beat Tenn. Cake (talk) 14:35, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Truth be told, the short version is that Bachman lied to the team about a possible Rose Bowl bid before the Tennessee game in order to motivate them. Bachman admitted as much in several interviews after he retired from Michigan State and moved to Port Charlotte.  Gators fans, on the other hand, would often wistfully talk about the Rose Bowl that got away.  Now largely forgotten, the '28 team was a huge part of the Gators' collective memories until the arrival of Ray Graves in 1960 and Steve Spurrier in 1990, and the Rose Bowl bid and the watered field were parts of the '28 legend.  It's also very weird how the UAA/UF SID lost track of some of the All-American honors from 1928, forgetting Crabtree, McRae and Steele.  Personally, I think they didn't have much of an athletic department in the 1920s and 1930s, and someone like Norm Carlson reconstructed the newspaper clipping file, years after the fact, during the 1960s or 1970s.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:05, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It's possible they ignored those who weren't first-team All-Americans, though that is hard to imagine for the South, unless it was done retroactively as you say. I've heard about the potential Rose Bowl bid as Bachman's creation for motivation–"a play out of Rockne's playbook" is usually the tale, but I did not know he admitted as much. That would be a neat addition. Wish I could see more of that Rose Bowl than this too. Cake (talk) 18:25, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, the UAA/UF SID is pretty good at claiming any kind of All-American honors they can, minor or major selectors, first team, second team, or otherwise. If you compare the media guide to the list article I compiled a couple of years ago, you will see they not only missed Crabtree, McRae and Steele's honors in 1928, they missed Van Sickel's second-team honors in 1929, and Bethea's second-team honors in 1930.  They also completely mangled Fergie Ferguson's 1941 honorable mention from Collier's into first-team honors from NEA and Collier's which don't exist.  No other Gator received any kind of All-American honors until Charlie LaPradd was a first-term selection by AP in 1952.  Given the completely mangled pre-1952 history, as well as the multiple coaching turnovers in the ensuing 22 years -- Bachman, Stanley, Cody, Lieb, Wolf and Woodruff, with World War II thrown in the mix -- I think a small-time program just lost what records they had.  Easy enough for clippings files to go missing, and there are also gaps in the pre-1950 lettermen's list, too.  Norm Carlson was the long-time SID director from the 1960s until he retired a few years ago, and I am guessing he was the one who reconstructed the All-American honors history retroactively.  Thirty or forty years after the fact, and without the benefit of the internet, it's understandable how they missed the other guys from 1928, 1929 and 1930: everyone was focused on Van Sickel being "the first," and he got most of the post-season ink in the Florida newspapers.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:02, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

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