Talk:1929 Safed riots

Kameel Nasr
An outlandish claim that "A Jewish community had been established in Safed after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492." comes from a highly dubious writer Kameel Nasr, whose scholarly credentials are, well, non-existant. Pecher Talk 14:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Establishment of the Jewish community
In the 11th century, "...there was a Jewish community in Safed, but we have no further information on the subject." Gil, M. History of Palestine: 634–1099, p. 214. Ian, may be it's high time you stopped pushing the POV that Jews are new immigrants to Israel? It's possible that the Jewish community in Safed was wiped out at a certain point to be re-established by Sephardi Jews in late 15th century, but citing only the re-establishment of the community without all its prior history is manipulative. Pecher Talk 09:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Please don't delete sources from this article. Add additional information per your source above if you wish. --Ian Pitchford 11:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * This article is about the massacre, not about the history of Safed over many centuries before the events in question. Pecher Talk 11:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. If you feel that strongly about it then go ahead and delete it. I just thought it was interesting historical context and generally I don't like to see good sources deleted. --Ian Pitchford 12:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Dead link
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 * http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/59a92104ed00dc468525625b00527fea!OpenDocument
 * In 1929 Safed pogrom on 2011-05-25 02:59:52, 404 Not Found
 * In 1929 Safed pogrom on 2011-06-02 03:42:50, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 03:43, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Page move
Oncenawhile moved this article to the name "1929 Safed pogrom" today, with an edit summary "Reverted to original as move was without discussion. There are no wp:RS which refer to this as the "safed pogrom". Regarding the first complaint, that the "move was without discussion", there does not need to be discussion about a page move if no-one objects, and this page was moved over a year ago without objection, so purely procedural arguments are no longer valid. Regarding the argument that reliable sources do not refer to this as a pogrom, many in fact do. For example: Given that the reasons for the move were not valid, let's discuss if the article should, in fact, be moved. Jayjg (talk) 00:14, 16 April 2012 (UTC) Best Wishes ' Ankh '. Morpork  11:09, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "In 1929, Safed's Arab inhabitants had massacred 35 of their Jewish neighbours and wounded dozens of them... the Jews of Safed cleaved to their native town. Yet, the lived in constant fear of a recurrence of the bloody pogrom." Yoav Gelber. Palestine, 1948: War, Escape and the Emergence of the Palestinian Refugee Problem. Sussex Academic Press, 2006. p. 112.
 * "In Jerusalem, Hebron and Safed, 133 Jews were killed and 339 were wounded in the pogroms of 1929". Lionel I. Casper. The Rape of Palestine and the Struggle for Jerusalem. Gefen Publishing House Ltd, 2003. p. 52.
 * "The pattern was repeated during the 1929 pogroms in Jerusalem, Safed and Hebron..." Robert S. Wistrich. A Lethal Obsession: Anti-Semitism from Antiquity to the Global Jihad. Random House, 2010.
 * Can I suggest you go to see your local optician? None of those sources use the phrase "Safed pogrom". They use the term pogrom, but that is not enough. Can you establish wp:commonname here? Oncenawhile (talk) 08:36, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Since the word pogrom had been used to describe the Safed killings, can you explain your objection to the phrase "Safed pogrom"?

As we are discovering on talk:pogrom, the use of the word has certain implications. Since the name of this article has not been established as the WP:COMMONNAME, we should not use creating a name with complex connotations unless we are agreed that the majority of scholars agree with that interpretation. In the absence of such agreement, we should use a less "loaded" word in the page title. Oncenawhile (talk) 09:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC) Best Wishes ' Ankh '. Morpork  09:48, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Sources describe this event as a pogrom.
 * Sure, but is it the most common way of describing it? That is the test here. Oncenawhile (talk) 12:43, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It's apparently not an uncommon way of describing it. Is there a more common description? Jayjg (talk) 17:49, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I have reviewed googlebooks hits for "safed 1929" (without quotes). Taking the first 20 hits at random, "riots" is by far the most common descriptive term, followed by "massacre". Riots has the added benefit of being consistent with the parent article 1929 Palestine riots, but given the events here I agree that "massacre" could also be applicable. I will change the title now in the spirit of WP:BRD. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:01, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * A more comprehensive Google Books test (with quotes):


 * "Safed riots" - 1 result (3 identical results)
 * "Safed riot" - 3 results
 * "Safed Massacre" - 9 results (separate, all referring to 1929).
 * "Safed in 1929" - 13 separate results, all save two ("attack" and "mass killing") use the term "massacre"
 * "massacres in Hebron and Safed" - 21 results
 * "massacres of Hebron and Safed" - 2 results
 * "Hebron and Safed massacres" - 9 results
 * "massacre in Safed" - 5 results (4 refer to events of 1929)
 * "Safed pogrom" appears only in reference of the 1834 looting of Safed.
 * You will find Safed under the List of events named massacres. --ארינמל (talk) 17:24, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

David Hacohen
An eyewitness account which I intend on introducing into the article Best Wishes ' Ankh '. Morpork  11:11, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Victims
22 victims are buried in Safed. The last three were killed in Ein Zeitim. There is one witness account of a baby being among the victims, but, like at least two cases in Hebron, it is not accounted for. As opposed to Hebron, the majority of victims in Safed were Sephardi. --ארינמל (talk) 13:26, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Katz, Esther Rivka - 84
 * HaCohen, Yishmael - 78 (Rabbi)
 * HaCohen, Rusha - 69
 * Cohen, Chana - 49
 * Cohen, Mazal - 44
 * Cohen, Meir - 26
 * Farjoun, Lulu - 54
 * Mammon, Yitzhak - 45
 * Aphriat, Moshe - 46
 * Aphriat, Frida - 49
 * Mizrahi, Reuven - 79
 * Mizrahi, Aharon - 59
 * Mizrahi, Rachel - 19
 * Mizrahi, Ayala - 18
 * Mizrahi, Refael - 8
 * Goldzweig, Scheindel - 69
 * Tolediano, Meir - 30
 * Klires, Elisha - 21
 * Yonas, (wife) - ??
 * Fliner, Sarah Beile - 59
 * Fliner, Avraham Yaakov - 55
 * Hartenstein, Aharon - 19

Riots or massacre?
What make this different from the Hebron massacre? Consider most victims were female or elderly... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.156.183.252 (talk) 11:52, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Can any one explain when and why an article's title was moved from 'Massacre' to some 'Riots'? I do not see any appropriate discussion, as it was in 2012-2013 one above. --Igorp_lj (talk) 14:51, 31 January 2019 (UTC)