Talk:1947–1948 Rajouri massacre

From the AfD discussion
[Copied from Articles for deletion/1947–1948 Rajouri massacre]

Many Wikipedia articles are referred to as a "Massacre", even with as few deaths as 10-30 (nowhere close to 30,000 of which many are refugees). Also, the article fits the definition of massacre, exactly like the article 1947 Mirpur Massacre. Below are many reliable sources (note that many of these have not been used in the article 1947 Jammu Massacre, so it is a distinct event) to a Massacre in Rajouri, either using both words in the same sentences (eg. "Massacre of Hindus and Sikhs in Rajouri") or explicitly referring to the event as the "Rajouri Massacre":

http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives1999/99february23.html

https://ikashmir.net/pakraid1947/rajouri.html

The term "Rajouri Massacre" used in the title: https://www.dailyexcelsior.com/tearful-homage-martyrs-1947-massacre-rajouri/

Used in the title again: https://www.dailyo.in/politics/pakistan-indian-army-azad-jammu-kashmir-rajouri-massacre-1947-china-pok/story/1/13643.html

https://www.satp.org/satporgtp/publication/faultlines/volume1/Fault1-Bloeriatext.htm

A Panun Kashmir (organisation of displaced Kashmiri Hindus) and the paper Kashmir Sentinel release which talks about an article in the Indian Express in 1947 which clearly refers to it as the "Rajouri Massacre" (PDF) http://www.panunkashmir.org/kashmirsentinel/pdf/2007/nov2007.pdf

https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.242704/2015.242704.Socio-economic-Roots_djvu.txt

Feel free to add these links as references to the article. I see no need to remove such an article.

Hindian1947 (talk) 01:32, 1 October 2020 (UTC)


 * , please fill in WP:Full citations for these sources so that we can discuss their reliability. Remmeber the requirements of WP:HISTRS for historical events.
 * On the main page as well, you need to provide full citations. Also provide below the pages from where you copied content from so that we can go look for the original sources. Your copying has clobbered them. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:56, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Framing
I'm a little concerned about the framing of this article. As far as I can see there's widespread coverage of atrocities committed by Pakistani raiders during their invasion, but coverage of a specific killing of Hindus and Sikhs only, in Rajouri, is harder to come by. Even this source, of which much was made at the AfD, only refers to the killings obliquely, describing the version of the incident in this article as being a "widely held narrative", and it stops short of endorsing that claim. There's clearly some substance to this article, but I'm concerned we're not framing it appropriately. There's also OR concerns: the cited sources did not support the version before my adjustment a few minutes ago. as participants in the above discussion. Vanamonde (Talk) 20:35, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I would suggest framing the article around Mohita Bhatia's scholarship and then, merge it somewhere.
 * I had removed a bunch of sources and content, supported by them. Firstpost is OpIndia, in making: ran a disclaimer about their editors having concluded DGH to be a Hinduphobic event! Then, there is a GOI publication. Another one is a hagiography by one former CoAS, who is also a minister in the Modi Cabinet. There is also an opinion editorial. The last one is a mil-hist book by Lancer. TrangaBellam (talk) 22:44, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The problem is that 30,000 non-Muslims were "killed, abducted or wounded" according to the Indian Army, and only "1% of the Hindus survived" according to Bhatia's source (p. 84). So this was a major disaster, but one which practically everybody ignores. At the moment, we have to depend on newspaper recollections. They are not as bad as you seem to think.
 * I think Vanamonde93's objection is to all the spiel preceding the "Background" section, which is certainly off-putting. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:59, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * My opinion is that they are all massively exaggerating. You cannot depend on opinion-editorials etc. to cover partition conflicts. Or use sources by Indian Army without attribution.
 * If such are the inclusion standards, we will have a thousand massacres of Hindus across the country which should have decimated the entire subcontinental population. Mohita Bhatia, quite cleverly, looks only at the differential production of narratives and chooses to not confirm the veracity of these recollected accounts. If scholars have ignored a major disaster, so do we. TrangaBellam (talk) 07:07, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * My objection is specifically to the idea that the sources cited here show evidence of a targeted killing rather than an indiscriminate massacre. Exaggerated or not, the killing was obviously horrific, but we need to frame it correctly, and we need to focus on the high-quality sources for that. I've trimmed the lead further, and the extra description should stay out until we find evidence of a religiously targeted killing. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:06, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Any and all killings are horrific irrespective of casualties - my point was about the part. sources. I have not seen any high qual. source except for M. Bhatia. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:26, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Any and all killings are horrific irrespective of casualties - my point was about the part. sources. I have not seen any high qual. source except for M. Bhatia. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:26, 21 September 2021 (UTC)