Talk:1947 Jammu massacres

March 2023
Regarding this revert, I fail to understand what part was “far too liberal” paraphrasing. In fact, quite the contrary, the current wording seems to be a misrepresentation of the source. UnpetitproleX (talk) 12:12, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 March 2023
I would like to add the following text to the "Violence against Jammu Muslims" section based on the book Kashmir, 1947: Rival Versions of History by Prem Shankar Jha. (ISBN: 9780195648584, Publisher: Oxford University Press, Pages cited: 11-12). Please add the following to the third paragraph in the section "Violence against Jammu Muslims". Text to be added as follows:

However, alternately, Prem Shankar Jha states in his book Kashmir, 1947: Rival Versions of History, "That while there were undoubtedly atrocities committed by bands of Sikhs and by some of the state troops against Muslims in the border belt of Jammu province in the first weeks of October, these were caused by an overspill into the state of the communal carnage occurring all along its borders in East and West Punjab, and overreaction and loss of control by the state forces in the face of atrocities committed by Muslims on Hindus both within Jammu & Kashmir state and in the adjoining areas of west Punjab, where only slightly less than half the population was Hindu and Sikh. While this was certainly no justification, Pakistan's charge that state troops were 'cleansing' the state of its 77 percent Muslim population in order to enable the Maharaja to accede to India is wholly unsustainable. Had this been his intention, he would have first 'cleansed' his 8,000-strong state force of its almost 3,000 Muslims and not waited for them to kill their officers before deserting to the enemy on 23-5 October. That the raids into Kashmir by the Pathan tribesmen were not spontaneous retaliation aimed at saving their Muslim brethren from the Dogra genocide but were carefully planned and instigated at least from the end of August or early September, i.e., a whole month before any of the alleged atrocities by the Kashmir state troops against Muslims in the border region took place, at a time when Kashmir was completely peaceful." Pbeditwiki (talk) 14:52, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: Quoting such a large section directly is discouraged, especially when it is not essential to the article. Please rewrite to meet the relevant WP:MOS guidelines. Remember to avoid direct paraphrasing and instead write your own summary. Feel free to re-open this request when appropriate. Actualcpscm (talk) 15:13, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you @Actualcpscm I've re-written the following text to the "Violence against Jammu Muslims" section based on the book Kashmir, 1947: Rival Versions of History by Prem Shankar Jha. (ISBN: 9780195648584, Publisher: Oxford University Press, Pages cited: 11-12). Please add the following to the third paragraph in the section "Violence against Jammu Muslims". Text to be added as follows:
 * Journalist Prem Shankar Jha states in his book Kashmir, 1947: Rival Versions of History, "That while there were undoubtedly atrocities committed by bands of Sikhs and by some of the state troops against Muslims in the border belt of Jammu province in the first weeks of October, these were caused by an overspill into the state of the communal carnage occurring all along its borders in East and West Punjab."
 * W. F. Webb was the British political agent in Kashmir during the 1947 and reported fortnightly to Crown representative of the state i.e. Viceroy. He reported in his September 1946 that Kashmir as a whole remained virtually untouched by the 'Direct Action' program launched by Jinnah in British India. His report for December 1946 reported that even the arrival of 2,500 Hindu and Sikh refugees from the tribal agency of Hazara did not cause any communal tension in Kashmir. When the communal violence started in Punjab in 1947, Maharaja Hari Singh sent more troops to Kashmir-Punjab border to ensure no trouble makers enter the territory from Punjab. This was reported by Reuters from Srinagar.
 * Maharaja Hari Singh has been wrongly accused of ethnic cleansing of Muslim population, as his 8,000-strong state force had almost 3,000 Muslims so how can such ethnic cleansing be carried out without cleansing the state force first. Also the raids into Kashmir by the Pathan tribesmen were not spontaneous retaliation aimed at saving their Muslim from the Dogra genocide but were carefully planned and instigated at least from the end of August or early September, i.e., a whole month before any of the alleged atrocities by the Kashmir state troops against Muslims in the border region took place, at a time when Kashmir was completely peaceful." Pbeditwiki (talk) 16:28, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

INA
We need better sources for involvement of INA, AD, etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 23:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It is already noted at 1947 Jammu_massacres with about 4 sources.
 * It is easy to find more reliable sources such as, "there began a wholesale massacre of Muslims in Jammu masterminded by the elements in the State Forces, the RSS, and former members of the Indian National Army", or "Muslims were massacred in Poonch and Jammu by the soldiers of the princely kingdom along with RSS and Akali Dal cadres".
 * This information is not new. This 1952 source writes: "It continued at Bagh in Poonch when on 26 August State troops set on Muslims who had disobeyed an order forbidding the observance of 'Pakistan Day' (15 August). It increased in tempo to spread to Jammu Province in September and October, with the infiltration of the RSS, Akali Sikhs, and members of the Indian National Army from India." Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 05:09, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * By the INA it doesn't mean the organization but ex soldiers or serviceman, INA Muslim servicemen and members fought for pakistan and kashmiris such as zaman kiani and many hindu aswell sikh serviceman of INA served with Sikh groups and RSS 39.43.141.153 (talk) 14:36, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Dating
How these are not a part of Jammu massacre? The source clearly says "By August 1947, further south in the district Jammu, a state-sponsored pogrom known as the "Jammu massacre" had commenced."

Also see: "In his book, The Pakistanis, Ian Stephens notes that the violence in Jammu began in August 1947 and continued for about eleven weeks. Stephens claims that five lakh people were killed and two lakh went missing, with many women being abducted." Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 10:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)


 * There are many many "sources". This is a contentious topic, where all kinds of views get presented and published by various contending parties. A balanced and WP:NPOV discussion already exists in 1947 Poonch Rebellion and Indo-Pakistani War of 1947-1948. Please don't insert anything here that contradicts those pages.
 * The timeline previously existing on this page is rock solid. You can debate for months and you won't get anywhere. You will be simply wasting our time. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:01, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * See also Timeline of the Kashmir conflict, where everything is catalogued. - Kautilya3 (talk) 11:02, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You are free to fix those articles otherwise I will do that anyway. Remember that there is nothing called "deadline" on Wikipedia thus articles can be modified anytime.
 * Do you have any other explanation for content removal? There is no doubt that the Jammu massacre started in August 1947. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 11:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:NPOV requires that you study all the sources cited there and explain how your sources are supposed to override those. You can't "it is sourced" in a contentious topic. Please pay attention to WP:DUE, and WP:WEIGHT. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:18, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * But where are your sources which claim Jammu massacre started only after October 1947? Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 11:23, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This is what I mean by "wasting time". As per the Timeline of the Kashmir conflict, 14 October is when the violence in Jammu started. See the sources. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

By the way, the so-called "losing control" happened in October. It was in reality a tactical withdrawal. The state forces had been strung along the border in penny pockets, and Army Chief Henry Lawrence Scott, who stepped down on 30 September, wrote in his final report that it was a problem because they won't be able to withstand sustained attacks. In October, orders were issued by Brigadier Rajendra Singh to withdraw them to fortified towns such as Poonch, Kotli, Mirpur, Bhimber and Jhangar. See On 6 October, the rebels launched attacks from across the border, and some of the "penny pockets" got caught in the fire. Some of them were rescued, and others succumbed. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:34, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Brahma Singh was an Indian military member and Lancer is an Indian military publication so this source cannot be treated as WP:RS.
 * Now back to the actual topic. Timeline of the Kashmir conflict is a Wikipedia article. It cites this source which cites a witness for saying Akalis and RSS were attacking the populace. Then it cites Ian Talbot which itself says: "Indian authors are generally reticent concerning both the indigenous roots of the revolt of the Muslim inhabitants of Poonch and in August 1947 and the orgy of communal violence in Jammu province which was orchestrated by the state police and Dogra armed forces. The September 1947 communal massacres in Jammu province created a flood of over 80,000 Muslim refugees to neighbouring Sialkot in West Punjab." The source has been falsified on Wikipedia, nothing else. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 11:49, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * What policies state that Indian military publications cannot be treated as WP:RS? We don't discount sources by nationality. Please don't bring in natinalities into the discussion. I cited Brahma Singh for Henry Lawrence Scott's report. Other sources have also mentiond the report. Brahma Singh also gives details of the orders issued for tactical withdrawal, and of the actual withdrawals. This is factual information and unless there are other sources that contradict it, the information is taken as valid. I am afraid your debating style here is bordering on WP:BATTLEGROUND.
 * As for the main issue, you haven't read Talbot's footnote [90], which says:
 * which corroborates Luv Puri's 14 October date. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You can cite those reliable sources which are refuting the fact that Hari Singh wasn't losing control instead of citing an Indian military man who's book is published by an Indian military publisher which promotes Indian POV. See the thread at WP:RSN about it: Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 342.
 * Footnote is not supposed to be considered over the article body. This footnote is particular about "Muslim villages" and Luv Puri is not claiming 14 October to be the when the first attack was carried out but has only cited an individual who remembered the attacks on 14 October.
 * Ian Talbot is very clear that violence against Muslims started before October 1947. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 15:49, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The "individual" is Muhammad Yusuf Saraf, a former chief justice of the Azad Kashmir High Court, and the author of 2-volume history of the Kashmir conflict. A reliable source. Saraf also contradicts the information in British sources about some astronomical number of Jammu Muslims going to Sialkot by the end of September.
 * Talbot doesn't give any sources for his 80,000 claim. It is likely that his sources confused the Punjab refugees that went through Jammu, as being Jammu refugees.
 * There was absolutely no communal violence in Jammu in September. Jammu Brigadier as well as the police chief were Muslims, and the state's army chief and police chief were British officers. As per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, the sources that provide detailed information and analysis carry weight, rather than those giving passing mentions.
 * Lancer publishers is a reliable publisher of military affairs, used dozens of time all over Wikipedia. . -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Lancer is not a reliable source per and you are free to remove it elsewhere. It cannot be used here.
 * So Luv Puri is not mentioning any date for the beginning of the violence. Anti-Muslim violence in September 1947 causing 80,000 refugees has been also cited by:
 * The violence did not start in September 1947. It started on August 1947 as per the sources I provided in the first message in this thread. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 17:12, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Lancer is not a reliable source per what?
 * You need to start citing author names, instead of editors of books. Your second source is Ian Talbot again. The first source is not visible to me. So, please provide a quotiation, or don't, if it is another passing mention. All these claims of August violence go back to Ian Stephens, who is not a credible source for this topic. His wild and outlandish claims are already mentioned in the main page, with attribution. No scholar that has studied the issue in detail believes that "200,000 Muslims just disappeared".
 * Indian scholars, by and large, did not study the internal happenings in Kashmir till recently. So, almost all the claims you see in the literature and generated from Pakistan, even if they are some times British sources in Pakistan. So, nobody knew that the systems put in place during the British Raj continued to be in place till the end of September, in particular the army chief and police chief continued, as did all their deputies in various towns. I don't see any western scholars being remotely aware of this fact. Some 100,000 Muslims from East Punjab and an equal number of non-Muslims from West Punjab passed through Jammu during August-September. They chose this route because it was safe. There was no violence happening there. Yoiu need to look at sources that have studied the subject in depth. For example, Snedden:
 * -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:34, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Lancer is not reliable per Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 342.
 * Who is disputing that the violence did not start in August 1947? Just because one statement of Ian Stephens is disputed it means nothing. The Wikipedia article has cited Christopher Snedden and you are doing the same but Snedden also agrees that violence in Jammu had already started in August 1947.
 * Snedden writes: "The Maharaja and his armed forces moved to suppress this campaign. Around 15 August, they may also have begun to repress Muslims, by killing them or by forcefully disarming them. A 1948 publication stated that 'hundreds' of people in Bagh, a district in Poonch, were killed at a hoisting of the Pakistan flag to celebrate Independence Day. Two short telegrams to Jinnah on 29 August from the 'Muslims of Poonch' and the 'Muslims of Bagh' also spoke of anti-Muslim brutality by the Maharaja's forces around the same time. The Muslim Conference politician who became the foundation President of Azad Kashmir, Sardar Muhammad Ibrahim Khan from Rawalakot in Poonch, was quoted by a 1949 publication as stating that the Maharaja had unleashed a 'reign of terror on 24 August 1947 that killed 500 people. While the number of casualties cannot be confirmed, 'shoot-on-sight' orders were apparently issued to army officers on 2 September 1947.
 * Snedden also writes: "In the period between 15 August and 26 October 1947, people and J&K took three significant actions that politically and physically divided J&K and instigated the continuing dispute over the state's international status: a Muslim anti-Maharaja uprising in Poonch; significant inter-religious violence in Jammy Province; and, the creation of Azad Kashmir in the areas of Jammy Province that the pro-Pakistan Muslims 'liberated'. These three actions occurred before Hari Singh's accession to India on 26 October 1947 and before either dominion or its military forced had officially entered J&K."
 * There is also:
 * There is no doubt that the violence in Jammu had already started in August 1947. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 20:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Lancer is not reliable per Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 342.
 * Who is disputing that the violence did not start in August 1947? Just because one statement of Ian Stephens is disputed it means nothing. The Wikipedia article has cited Christopher Snedden and you are doing the same but Snedden also agrees that violence in Jammu had already started in August 1947.
 * Snedden writes: "The Maharaja and his armed forces moved to suppress this campaign. Around 15 August, they may also have begun to repress Muslims, by killing them or by forcefully disarming them. A 1948 publication stated that 'hundreds' of people in Bagh, a district in Poonch, were killed at a hoisting of the Pakistan flag to celebrate Independence Day. Two short telegrams to Jinnah on 29 August from the 'Muslims of Poonch' and the 'Muslims of Bagh' also spoke of anti-Muslim brutality by the Maharaja's forces around the same time. The Muslim Conference politician who became the foundation President of Azad Kashmir, Sardar Muhammad Ibrahim Khan from Rawalakot in Poonch, was quoted by a 1949 publication as stating that the Maharaja had unleashed a 'reign of terror on 24 August 1947 that killed 500 people. While the number of casualties cannot be confirmed, 'shoot-on-sight' orders were apparently issued to army officers on 2 September 1947.
 * Snedden also writes: "In the period between 15 August and 26 October 1947, people and J&K took three significant actions that politically and physically divided J&K and instigated the continuing dispute over the state's international status: a Muslim anti-Maharaja uprising in Poonch; significant inter-religious violence in Jammy Province; and, the creation of Azad Kashmir in the areas of Jammy Province that the pro-Pakistan Muslims 'liberated'. These three actions occurred before Hari Singh's accession to India on 26 October 1947 and before either dominion or its military forced had officially entered J&K."
 * There is also:
 * There is no doubt that the violence in Jammu had already started in August 1947. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 20:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)


 * A random thread on RSN that happens to mention Lancer doesn't become policy. If you want to get Lancer declared unreliable, start a thread on it, make your case, and invite people at WT:INDIA to provide their input.
 * The first source you mentioned (Snedden, Kashmir Unwritten History) talks about "Muslims of Poonch" and "Muslims of Bagh", not "Muslims of Jammu". It is entirely irrelevant. Neither does crushing an anti-state rebellion, if that is what it was, count as a "massacre".
 * The second source (Snedden, Understanding Kashmir), talks about three events/processes that happened between 15 August and 26 October. That does not imply every one of them started on 15 August. Was "Azad Kashmir" declared on 15 August?
 * The third source is authored by Chattha, whose name you have again ignored to mention. The source is [38: Pakistan Times, 19 September 1947]. That is a Lahore newspaper run by the Muslim Leage state president of Punjab, Mian Iftikaruddin. How does the newspaper know what had happened in Jammu? And, how does this trump the Dawn report that Snedden has covered in detail?
 * It is clear that you are not discussing in good faith, and are indeed wasting my time. So, I don't wish to continue this further. If you want to take this further, you can use WP:DR. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:50, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * By the way, Serena Hussain, the source you originally cited for the August claim, states that the "Jammu district" went from a Muslim-majority to a Muslim-minority district. The population statistics are given on the main page. Do you see "Jammu district" being "Muslim-majority"? And, she cites Chatta for this too, who is equally sloppy and inaccurate. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That RSN thread was not random. It involved multiple editors and I am going to abide by it until it has been overturned. Lancer cannot be used for disputing a far more reliable publication.
 * "Jammu massacres" concerns Jammu division which included Poonch, Bagh at the time when massacres happened. What Snedden noted is relevant to this massacre. Snedden himself considers these locations to be part of Jammu division as per his own statement: "Muslims from Poonch Jagir, and Mirpur District both located in western Jammu".
 * Ilyas Chattha, the writer of Partition and Locality: Violence, Migration, and Development in Gujranwala and Sialkot, 1947-1961, Oxford University Press, 2011, is not "sloppy and inaccurate".
 * There would be a need of WP:DR only if there is a sensible dispute. So far, you have only relied on your own views and debunked your own claims by citing sources that exactly contradict the narrative you are building up. First it was Ian Talbot and now that is Snedden.
 * I am going to give you another opportunity to come up with a better explanation and prove how violence started only in October.
 * Remember that you haven't provided even a single source for refuting the fact that massacre already started in August 1947. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 03:41, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

The specific claim that Serena Hussain made was:

But "Chatta 2013", which was actually an article he wrote for Pakistan Visions in 2009 titled "Terrible Fate..", doesn't have this claim. In fact, he presents a table showing the Muslim percentages in various districts, which tallies with our figures taken from the census records. So, she added her own WP:OR and gave an improper citation, which doesn't do her any credit.

As for Chattha, he didn't make such glaring errors. So I take back the "inaccurate" comment about him, but the "sloppiness" comment stands. He was writing this article in 2009, where he cited the Pakistan Times information. But he didn't examine the Dawn information that Snedden has cited and analysed in detail. Chattha knew the Snedden article. His own article was written as a rejoinder to it. But he ignored available evidence which had already appeared in the scholarly literature. At a minimum, he should have mentioned it and explained why he discounted it. That is sloppiness.

But all these reports are wrong. They took 100,000 East Punjab refugees who passed through Jammu in August–September, to be originating in Jammu itself. Whether that was an honest mistake or deliberate misinformation, I can't say. But it is pervasive throughout the Pakistani literature on Kashmir. In fact, Francis Mudie, the governor of West Punjab, cited it to the Commonwealth Relations Office in London. All the claims of "violence in Jammu during September" are based on this misinformation. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:51, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Snedden says:

And Chattha completely ignores the report in his OUP-published thesis! I suppose OUP didn't send it to Snedden for peer review. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:43, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The source you have cited from Ilays Chatta is itself saying that Kashmiri Muslims were massacred throughout "August-October 1947". He cites "there were regular reports of ‘persecutions’ and ‘mass murders of Muslims" since August 1947.
 * Scroll: "Snedden cites a 1948 publication from West Punjab, based on refugee testimonies, recording 90 anti-Muslim incidents in Jammu and Kashmir between August 8 and December 12, 1947, with 118,459 alleged Muslims deaths and 13,360 abductions, with all incidents related to these deaths “involving state or Dogra troops”."
 * There is no dispute over the dating of the violence in Jammu which indeed started from August 1947.
 * There is dispute only over the population figure and the total victims but I have not modified the victim figure on the infobox or lead. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 03:12, 3 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I didn't cite the source. Serena Hussain, your primary source for the August claim, cited it. And, she cited a blog post version (dated 2013). 2013 is when Chattha received his PhD. So, a 2009 publication would be student research, published in some no-name journal. And, no way does a newspaper op-ed published in 2023 settle any issues in a contentious topic like this.-- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:19, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Is there any source which disputes the information? I also cited Scroll.in which is not Chattha. As such this information remains unchallenged. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 15:53, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 March 2024
The starting of the article looks heavily biased and tries to shift all the blame on Hindus, when the reality is they were the first ones to get massacred several times in the history of Kashmir , and also in the events leading upto 1947 aug massacre like the Rawalpindi and noakhali genocide. Also the Hindus of today's POK are extinct. 1947 Rawalpindi massacres https://g.co/kgs/n2GEJ7x Abraca21 (talk) 19:00, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. PianoDan (talk) 19:42, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

The Tale of the massacre of 20,000–100,000 Muslims in Jammu
Kautilya3 I can see it. You reverted | my edit

There's a clear misinterpretation of the source. While there may have been some killings, there is no evidence of the massacre of 100,000 Muslims in Jammu. The author refers to this alleged widespread massacre as a tale.

Direct quote of the author: “SOME WRITERS CLAIM THAT UP TO TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND MUSLIMS were killed in Jammu Province of Jammu and Kashmir soon after the partition of the Indian subcontinent in August 1947 [...] They allege that these Muslims were... the tale of a massacre of Muslims caused a chain of events...” Stormbird   (talk)  04:51, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Remember that the MOS:LEAD summarises the body and is not mere reproduction of what the sources say. Some sources at some point in time might have been unsure, there are plenty of other sources that exhibit definite knowledge, especially Ved Bhasin, although nobody can say for sure, how people might have been killed. You are looking an old source of Christopher Snedden, written in 2001. His later writings provide more information, and more concreteness, including the lowered estimate of 20,000-100,000, which we accept as a consensus view. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:03, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, Stormbird, the portion of the lead you added weasel words to was about the existence of the killings, not their magnitude; I'm not aware of scholars who claim killings did not occur, and if you have sources saying so you need to present them. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

How Maharaja Hari Singh can accused of mentioned crimes without any proof or reference
In this article how can you accuse Maharaja Hari Singh of the mentioned crimes without showing any references or proofs. This article is trying to tarnish his name and glory. I am requesting to remove his name from the mentioned allegations if there is no concrete evidence.Sudhakar Vankamamidi (talk) 19:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)