Talk:1963 Syrian coup d'état

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved to 1963 Syrian coup d'état Mike Cline (talk) 18:35, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

8th of March Revolution → 1963 Syrian coup d'état –

While the name as it is represents the "official" name, it is neither the most common, nor accurate, nor does it represent NPOV. This was in fact, a military coup d'etat (as the article clearly states in the first section) wherby a military junta overthrew a civilian government and established a different regime. Searching on GBooks for ("8 march 1963" syrian revolution) returns 196 results, do note that some of the results refer to the "revolutionary council" which is a proper name for an official body, rather than calling the event a "revolution", and some simply stick to the official name. Searching for ("8 march 1963" syrian revolution) returns 334 results. Removing the "8" we get the same ratio of results, 1,150 vs. 1,820. Finally, the word revolution presents a POV (and that is one of the official narrative), with no factual or guideline reasons to support it. Renaming it to 1963 Syrian coup d'état, would also be consistent with all the other articles about past and subsequent military coups in Syria.Yazan (talk) 18:39, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Support as nominator, per the arguments above. Yazan (talk) 00:24, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 *  Tentative support - At first sight "1963 coup"/"coup of 1963" + Syria does seem to get about double the GBhits of "March 8 Revolution/8 March Revolution" and be in more NPOV sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:18, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose, The majority of events referred to as revolutions are normally military coups. --TIAYN (talk) 20:01, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but that's hardly a policy-based argument. Wikipedia has very clear policy on WP:TITLEs. And 8th of March revolution, is hardly the common name for this event, this is usually referred to as the Baathi coup, Baathi takeover, etc.. Yazan (talk) 00:24, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. The reader should be able to figure out what the article is about from the title. The current title could be about almost anything. Kauffner (talk) 03:07, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I would also support re-naming to "1963 Baathi coup d'état in Syria" or "1963 Syrian Baathi coup d'état", for further clarification.Yazan (talk) 03:11, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Support In addition to Yazan's reasoning, the coup was also just another in a series of frequent coups throughout the 1960s. Do we refer to all of those coups as revolutions? Assad's ascension to power in 1970 could definitely be described as a revolution (and it mostly is described as such) since it clearly began seismic changes in the Syrian political, military and social spheres. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:15, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Copyedit
Per request, edited this. Comments:


 * There are many redlinks that should be removed.


 * The footnote strategy produces many more notes than necessary. Consider replacing the sfn's with a single ref and instead.


 * The are many strong claims that aren't really backed up about what was necessary or insufficient about the affair. I neutralized some of them, but don't consider it a finished project.


 * Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lfstevens (talk • contribs) 18:43, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Purges of non-Ba'athists
Regarding the restoration of the "Failed coup of 18 July" subsection heading, I just want to make clear that ~50 Nasserist officers were purged between 28 April and 2 May, and the ~30 elite independents, including Ziad al-Hariri, were purged between 23 June and 8 July. Both incidents preceded the 18 July coup attempt by the Nasserists under Jassem Alwan's and the ANM's leadership. After the coup attempt, more Nasserists were purged of course, but most of the purges preceded it and I renamed the section to reflect that. Do you agree to a heading change? --Al Ameer 17:41, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Things I forget, okay, but then it should rather be titled, purge and failed coup.. --TIAYN (talk) 05:49, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's fine with me. I made slight adjustments to the new heading. --Al Ameer 06:12, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

NCRC membership?
Does anyone have a list of the NCRC's initial or expanded membership? If available, we could add a second reference note like that of the Military Committee's membership. And/or we could also add it to the article on the NCRC. --Al Ameer (talk) 19:09, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I tried, but the only thing I found was NCRC membership in Iraq, and that it the body changed it names with the introduction of the provisional constitution. --TIAYN (talk) 20:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yea, I've been looking through Mufti and Rabinovich, but no luck. Let me clarify this then (because this slightly confuses me): Was al-Bitar's cabinet a separate entity from the NCRC or was it the same thing? In other words, was al-Bitar the PM of the NCRC, Lu'ayy the President, Hafiz the Interior etc.? Because if so, then I might have a preliminary list of the body's membership. --Al Ameer (talk) 20:41, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The NCRC was supposed to be the legislative body, but similar to socialist countries, it had supreme executive power.. However, it delegated its executive power to the cabinet when it was not in session... When the Provisional Constitution was issued, the NCRC switched its name to the National Revolutionary Council and instead of delegating its authority to the Cabinet, it delegated its authority to a five-man Presidential Council... At the beginning the Chairman of the NCRC was the head of state, but when the Presidential Council was established, the head of state was the Chairman of the Presidential Council while the head of the NRC became the speaker of parliament.... However, most sources continue to refer to the NRC as the NCRC even after the constitution... In reality, this is a mess, nothing else.. But to answer the question, the cabinet didn't have to be members of the NCRC, but they were elected (or at least approved) by NCRC.. The NCRC was not elected by the people, and, well, the whole point of the NCRC was that it would elect itself... This is all I know, but I can read through the Devlin book if you need more.. --TIAYN (talk) 21:19, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Damn, that is a mess. I've noticed many members of the March 1963 NCRC were also members of al-Bitar's first cabinet which makes this even more confusing. I'm gonna see if I could find more on membership. Would you know the composition of al-Bitar's first cabinet by any chance?

Just for future reference, this is what I have so far of Bitar's March 1963 cabinet from the Mufti, Batatu and Rabinovich sources: (Except for Jundi, all the Nasserites resigned by June, and Zuhur and Jamal Atassi were not part of al-Bitar's post-June cabinet either)
 * Salah Bitar (Ba'ath) was PM and foreign
 * Nihad al-Qasim (Nasserite) deputy PM
 * Muhammad Umran (Ba'ath) deputy PM,
 * Muhammad Sufi (Nasserite) defense,
 * Hani al-Hindi (Nasserite) planning
 * Sami Sufan (Nasserite) supply
 * Sami al-Jundi (Nasserite, then Ba'athist) culture and national guidance
 * Sami Droubi (Nasserite, though member of Ba'ath also) education
 * Mansur al-Atrash (Ba'ath) labor and social affairs
 * Amin al-Hafiz (Ba'ath) interior
 * Abd al-Karim Zuhur (Ba'ath) economy
 * Jamal al-Atassi (Ba'ath) information
 * Yusuf Zuayyin (Ba'ath) agrarian reform
 * al-Wadi Taleb (Ba'ath) municipal and rural affairs
 * Ibrahim Makhus (Ba'ath) health.


 * Salah al-Din al-Bitar - Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs (Ba'ath)
 * Nihad al-Qasim - deputy prime minister and justice minister (United Arab Front-Nasserist)
 * Abd al-Wahhab Haumad - minister of finance (United Arab Front-Nasserist)
 * General Muhammad al-Sufi - minister of defense (Nasserist)
 * Brigadier General Amin al-Hafiz - minister of interior (Ba'ath)
 * Mansur al-Atrash - minister of labour and social affairs (Ba'ath)
 * Abd al-Halim Swaidan - minister of agriculture (Ba'ath)
 * Sami al-Durubi - minister of education and culture (Ba'ath, pro-Nasser)
 * Abd al-Karim Zuhur - minister of the economy (Ba'ath, pro-Nasser)
 * Jamal al-Atasi - minister of information (Ba'ath, pro-Nasser)
 * Darwish Alwani - minister of state for religious endowments (N/A)
 * Hani al-Hindi - minister of planning (Arab Nationalist Movement-Nasserist)
 * Al-Walid Talib - minister for municipal and rural affairs (Ba'ath)
 * Sami Sufan - minister of supply (Vanguard of Socialist Unionists-Nasserist)
 * Jihad Dahi - minister of communications (Arab Nationalist Movement-Nasserist)
 * Ahmad Abu Salih - minister of public works (Ba'ath)
 * Shibli al-Aysami - minister of agrarian reform (Ba'ath)
 * Ibrahim Makhus - minister of health (Ba'ath)
 * Talib Damad - minister of industry (N/A)
 * Sami al-Jundi - minister of guidance (Vanguard of Socialist Unionists-Nasserist, defected to Ba'ath)
 * That's the original cabinet, but changes were made, it lasted form 9 March 1963 to 11 May 1963.. Of their affiliation I don't have a clue.--TIAYN (talk) 23:43, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Great, thanks for the list. I think I'll start an article on it: Cabinet of Syria (March 1963-May 1963). I know each of their affiliations. The Nasserites weren't a party of course, but they were spread between the ANM, United Arab Front and Vanguard of Socialist Unionists (ex-Ba'ath). The rest were Ba'athists of different stripes, don't think there were any "independents" though. --Al Ameer (talk) 04:05, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll have to ask if that is even necessary, considering how bad the Salah al-Din al-Bitar... You don't create a sub-article before fixing the main article, at least that is my view. --TIAYN (talk) 08:58, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Good point, it could wait until the Bitar article is improved. At least we have it here as a point of reference. --Al Ameer (talk) 16:09, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

How could the population have been "indifferent"?
Since this coup has killed over 800 people where killed and another 20 pro Kudsi politicians where publically hanged, how could the commoners have been indifferent? That is more people killed than Hitler had killed in the night of the long knives. Not to mention a state of emergency was declared, a police state created and Syria's last chance at democracy was terminated. How could this of led to the population being in different? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.129.155 (talk) 01:01, 27 February 2018 (UTC)