Talk:1968 Polish political crisis

Anonymous changes
64.18.236.etc It is not "NPOVing" an article to just delete material you disagree with and insert qualifiers like "allegedly" in front of true statements. Please provide some reputible source that says that the March 1968 did not become anti-Jewish in nature, because every source I have read on this, Polish and non-Polish (and I cite two Polish sources in the article) is unanimous on this point, and it seems pretty obvious that with the banning of Yiddish and Jewish institutions, for example, "Zionism" was not the target. If you want to challenge it, you are going to need to provide some evidence supporting your view. --Goodoldpolonius2 02:31, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Please cite your other sources. The two you provide are "a revised and abbreviated version of a paper" and an abstract of a book published only in Polish. Neither of the sources you do cite contain any proper source references or primary source material backing up their bald assertions that the Polish anti-Zionism was really disguised anti-Semitism. The primary sources that are cited (but not fully refernced) support the contention that the campaigns were anti-Zionist and not anti-Semitic. For instance, Rozenbaum quoting Defence Minister (again with no references) writes: "He also emphasized that 'the pro-Israeli position represents a pro-imperialist attitude disguised by nationalism; therefore it is anti-socialist and anti-national.' He warned that 'such attitudes can never be tolerated.' " Nothing in there supports your contention. By the way, Stola (p. 2) cites a figure of 13,000 Polish Jews who emigrated not 25,000 as the article currently says.


 * Huh? You seem to be playing games here, not presenting any evidence of your own and attacking sources without evidence, combined with selective quoting. First, I presented three sources, a paper published by Columbia University, the Encyclopedia of Eastern European Jewry published by Yale, and an abstact of a book by Dariusz Stola -- all reputable, all talking about this as anti-Jewish.  If you claim they contain factual errors, you will need to point them out.  Second, you quote randomly from Spychalski's public speech of July 19, 1967 in an article which next says that he purged almost all the Jews from the air force -- how, exactly, does that prove your point that this was not anti-Jewish?
 * You will note that I provided another set of sources below, ones that will hopefully stop this rather silly debate. The Communist government in 1988 called the 1968 events anti-Semitic, as did the leader of Solidarity, the Sejm in 2000, and every scholarly source who wrote about the events.  Perhaps it is time for your to provide some sources, since both the free and communist Polish governments seems to disagree with you. --Goodoldpolonius2 04:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

NPOV
Is this an encylopedia or an ADL propaganda front? One person's assertion cannot turn anti-Zionism into anti-Semitism--they are different issues. The NPOV version maintains the allegations that the campaigns were anti-Semitic but it states them as allegations not established fact. Soviet bloc countries had good reason to be anti-Zionist in 1968 and as the article states, "In 1967, during the time leading up to and during the Six Day War, the Polish public was generally sympathetic towards Israel." According to Yad Vashem, the largest number of "righteous gentiles"--hundreds of them--were Poles even though millions of Poles were killed by the Nazis, too. There is no reason to impute anti-Semitism where another more reasonable, fact-based explanation suffices. If the banners from March 1968 read: "Anti-semitism: no, Anti-zionism: yes," then why can't that be accepted at face value. The organizers obviously made the distinction and OPPOSED anti-Semitism.


 * You do not need to comment in such a hostile manner, it doesn't win you any points. But, to answer your question, every source -- Polish or not -- indicates that the campaign was ultimately anti-Jewish not anti-Zionist in character.  Jewish organizations were banned, the government made a list of all the Jews in Poland (even those with no connections to the Jewish community for generations) and Jews were banned from government and university jobs, Yiddish was banned, etc; how do you explain that as anti-Zionism?   As for your wider attacks, Jewish and Gentile Poles often got along well, and many Poles tried to help Jews at various low points in history, but there were also obviously anti-Semitic events as well, look at the 1930s anti-Jewish laws and pogroms, or the Kielce pogrom or the Jedwabne massacre as examples.  Talking about these events does not eliminate the good deeds (and there were actually over 5,000 Polish "Righteous Among Nations" not "hundreds"), but whitewashing them is not NPOV. Every commentator points out that the March 1968 events were anti-Jewish. Give me an example of a source that says that the events were not ultimately anti-Jewish and explain why so many people, including Polish intellectuals at the time, considered them so.  You are going to need to back up your point with some evidence, don't just insert personal opinion. --Goodoldpolonius2 02:44, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Please provide references to your additional sources. If Jewish organizations were predominantly Zionist and Yiddish was the lingua franca of Zionists then it would make sense to ban Jewish organizations and Yiddish as part of an anti-Zionist crackdown. I'm not claiming to know the truth here but this article is not NPOV at present--not without some evidence beyond bald assertion.


 * Previous instances of Polish anti-Jewish actions and attitudes does not prove that the March 1968 events were anti-Jewish rather than anti-Zionist. Although I'm sure that some opponents of Jews took advantage of this situation just as some Zionists take advantage of anti-Zionism to brand people as anti-Semites.


 * This is getting ridiculous, "Yiddish was the lingua franca of Zionists"? In any case, you stand pretty much alone on this.  Everybody has called these anti-Semitic, even the Communists in 1988.  Here:
 * The President of Poland acknowledged that they were anti-Jewish: "Last Tuesday [30th May] Kwasniewski meeting with Jewish students in Tel Aviv apologized for the March 1968 anti-Semitic campaign. "I apologize as the president of Poland and as a Pole," Kwasniewski said. " BBC, 2 June 2000
 * The Sejm acknowledged they were anti-Jewish, in an official statement: "Thirty years ago, the communist authorities quashed student protests staged on behalf of freedom of speech, civil liberties, and respect for the national cultural heritage, thereby launching a campaign under anti-Semitic slogans, aimed against intellectuals and students. The campaign was accompanied by the detainment, beating up and imprisonment of participants in the protests. Due to the persecution, many Poles of Jewish descent were forced to leave the country," official statement, Sejm Acknowledges March 1968 Protests. 23 March 1998 Polish News Bulletin
 * The communists said it: "Poland's ruling Communist Party acknowledged yesterday that an anti- Semitic campaign drove thousands of Jews from the country in 1968, but it did not accept full responsibility for it. " Poland admits anti-Jewish actions, Reuters, 3 March 1988
 * Scholarly sources say it: "A paroxysm of state-sponsored anti-Semitism, the so-called 'anti-Zionist campaign'" Michael Steinlauf, Slavic Review, Vol. 54, No. 2. (Summer, 1995), pp. 537-538.
 * Again: "One of the most widespread and virulent anti-semitic campaigns in Polish history" . Ainsztein. International Affairs (Royal Institute of International Affairs 1944-), Vol. 49, No. 4. (Oct., 1973), pp. 657-658.
 * Again: "anti-Semitic purges" Patrice M Dabrowski. Canadian Slavonic Papers. Ottawa: Mar-Jun 2005.Vol.47, Iss. 1/2; pg. 155
 * Again: "This article complements studies on 1968 in Poland that have explained the anti-Semitic campaign by pointing to the Soviet factor, traditional Polish anti-Semitism, or factional conflict within the Polish Communist Party" The Red and the Brown: Boleslaw Piasecki, the Polish Communists, and the Anti-Zionist Campaign in Poland, 1967-68 Mikolaj Kunicki. East European Politics and Societies. Berkeley: Spring 2005.Vol.19, Iss. 2;  pg. 185
 * And, literally today, the Polish courts: "People who were forced to hand in their passports and leave the country in 1968 after an anti-Semitism campaign orchestrated by the communist regime, did not lose their Polish nationality, the Main Administrative Court (NSA) has ruled" NSA Restores Polish Nationality to 1968 Emigrants, 17 October 2005, Polish News Bulletin
 * Satisfied? Or do you have compelling evidence to the contrary? I am removing your NPOV tag unless you can give some information that there is actually a dispute here, because you have yet to provide any evidence of one.--Goodoldpolonius2 04:12, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

That's all PZPR's political intrigue
All the above are merely someone's suggestions, that anti-Semitism was the core issue of the events of 1968 in Poland. Supporters of this claim include Aleksander Kwaśniewski :D (for an average Pole anything this fellow supports is possibly fishy; former PZPR member BTW). When it comes to details, it shows that the whole thing was down to a competition between 2 fractions of Polish communist party (PZPR) - so called "partyzanci" and "komandosi" - the former being a nationalist fraction and the latter - a cosmopolitic one. Both sides used various propaganda against each other, including accusations of anti-Semitism on the one side, and of Zionism on the other. Extrapolating this game into a supposedly contry-wide Polish - Jewish conflict and suggesting there was anti-Semitism, understood as a sociological phehomenon, involved, is an absurd. Rationale? Mind that in these days the majority of Polish society were in favor of Jews in their conflict with Arabs, even though Arabs were officialy supported by the Polish government. Only a small minority of Poles was responsible for the suffering of Jewish people in the result of March 1968 - those who wanted to reach their political goals by using anti-Semitic rethorics, simply due to the reason that their opponent fraction had a big number of Jews among their ranks. If those were, let's say, British, anti-British slogans and repressions would come into play. As to references - Eisler, Jerzy: Polski rok 1968. Warszawa, Instytut Pamięci Narodowej, 2006. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.27.15.103 (talk) 14:50, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

A better name?
I am willing to bet there was a lot happening around the world in March 1968. Perhaps a better name for this article would be along the lines of March 1968 events in Poland or 1968 Jewish exodus from Poland? &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;ну? 08:40, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Interestingly, "March 1968 events" seems to be what they are called, even by the BBC, the alternate name is the "Polish anti-Zionist campaign." (now a redirect) We could move it to March 1968 events (Poland), if there was any chance of confusion, but, like May Day, I think it is specific enough in meaning. --Goodoldpolonius2 12:28, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I think having "Poland" in the title would help those who use a search engine, but I leave it up to you.  &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;ну? 19:49, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I am pretty neutral on the name change, I don't know if anyone else is reading this talk page (outside of the anonymous editor who I responded to above), but, if so, any thoughts from any other editors? Halibutt? Piotrus? --Goodoldpolonius2 03:53, 19 October 2005 (UTC)


 * While I cannot judge on English usage as I'm not a native speaker, I believe the current name does not need a disambiguation - at least not yet. Perhaps if we had more articles on March 1968 in various countries, we could move it to some other name. However, currently it's the only such article. So, to make long thing short, we have a pretty decent article under the name actually used both in Poland and abroad. Why change that name to something less-established if there is no need to?


 * As to the name itself, Polish historiography is quite bizarre in its love for short, month name inspired terms. In many cases the name of the month written with a capital letter (as opposed to ordinary nouns which are not capitalized) is clear to all in Poland as a reference to a specific period. This is the case of January (Uprising), June (1956), August (Warsaw Uprising), September (of 1939) and December (1981). There are also countless other historical terms with month name as their integral part, like the Uprisings (January, November). The case of 1968 is the same - in most contexts if a person says that "After March I quit my job" it is clear that he or she means the March of 1968. Other frequently used terms include "March events" (wypadki marcowe) and March of 1968 (marzec 1968). So, the current name of the article is not only descriptive, but could also be treated as a proper name of certain historical phenomenon. At least that's the Polish perspective. Did I add to the confusion? Halibutt 07:23, 19 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Works for me. This was educational, thank you. BTW, Halibutt, I love your maps.  &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;ну? 08:42, 19 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Great, thanks. --Goodoldpolonius2 18:33, 19 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Glad to hear that, Humus sapiens. Currently I owe Piotrus some maps for his excellent Dymitriad series. Halibutt 18:53, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

My suggestion would be to add all the alternative (better for Google?) names to wiki as a redirect. That's what I do with most of my new articles. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:59, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Article scope
It seems the article needs some expansion and the header needs rewriting. The current header states:

''The March 1968 Events were a series of state-organized anti-semitic campaign in People's Republic of Poland under the pretense of anti-Zionism that drove out most of Poland's remaining Jewish population. ''

That was certainly a major component of the March Events. However, the phenomenon is better described as a large scale political crisis in Poland which involved significant student demonstrations and their brutal suppression, a power struggle inside the Communist party, and an organized campaign against many intellectuals not holding to the party line, in addition to the anti-semitic campaign. It seems to me that, if one wants to focus specifically on the anti-semitic component of the March 1968 events, it should be done in a dedicated, separate article. Balcer 18:24, 19 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Balcer, I think the reason is that the article actually grew out of the History of the Jews in Poland article, so the effort went into the effects on the Jewish community. The article then got further expanded because of comments like those by the anonymous user above, claiming that there was no anti-Jewish campaign, which forced the article included even more about anti-Semitism to avoid revisionist attacks. If someone wants to take a stab at adding the other, quite important, issues in, that would be great -- I can try when I have time as well. --Goodoldpolonius2 18:33, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Title
I suggest a title that will be more communicative to those not conversant with Polish history: "Polish 1968 political crisis." logologist 03:32, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
 * What about Polish March 1968 political crisis? March component in name is fairly useful, in that case, I think.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:05, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

NPOV Again
''In 1967, during the time leading up to and during the Six Day War, the Polish public was generally sympathetic towards Israel. A popular joke of that era based on the knowledge that a significant percent of the Jews living in Israel were emigrants from Poland stated "The Polish Jews won [the war] with the Russian Arabs" (Polscy Żydzi wygrali z ruskimi arabami). This contrasted with the party line in the Soviet Union, which had begun to attack Zionism and Israel and had switched their allegiance to the Arab states. Władysław Gomułka and the Polish leadership saw an opportunity to both please Moscow by moving against pro-Israeli sentiment, and to bolster Gomułka's own government by using anti-Jewish sentiment to clamp down on political dissidence.''

This right here immediately eliminates any credibility. The charge is anti-Semitism, yet the bulk of information that is supposedly evidence of this charge pertains not to the treatment of Jews but on the perception of Israel. Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism are two completely different thoughts. Opposing Israel does not amount to anti-Semitism. This paragraph will be removed as opposition to Israel has nothing to do with Anti-Semitism. Interestingly, not a single Jew was killed in these allegedly "anti-Semitic" policies compared to the endless pogroms of interwar Poland. With help from Zionist groups, the vast majority of Polish Jews had already defected to Israel in the years following 1945. The presence of 10,000 Jews in Poland in 1989 is another refutation of the charge that this was an Anti-Semitic campaign. Anti-Semitism would have strived to forceably expel all Jews. But Jews in Poland were not forced out. They simply defected to Israel on commercial airlines.

The so-called scholarly sources read like editorials. Plucking material from corporate-funded institutes and propgandistic NGOs does not render this NPOV. Particularly blatant violation of NPOV policy are completely opinionated assertions like "Anti-Semitism under the cloak of Anti-Zionism". There are also baseless statements like "Poles sympathized with Israel".

Anti-Semitism in the PRL
I know showing is better than telling, but the apologist tone of anti-semitism section is embarrassing. So Jews left Poland because they don't want to live in a communism country, and at the same time, they're imposing Communism on a country resistant to it? This sort of doublethink just show how Poles are still incapable of coming to terms with their past. I'm taking out the assertion that anti-semitism is caused by the so-called zydokomuna. It's flat out wrong, since anti-semitism was intense in Poland prior to 1939. --Chernyshevsky (talk) 16:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * On reading the passage again, I give up. It's beyond help. I don't know what you can do with a sentence like "the vast majority of survivors left for several reasons, often more than one." --Chernyshevsky (talk) 16:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Chernyshevsky .... don't give up body :) !( sorry your comment just made me laugh a little) Look ... Jews who were represented in post war Polish communist government and structures of oppression had long abandoned their Jewishness. These people were just of the Jewish origin. There were plenty of "pure" Poles in high ranks of communist regime as well. Every nation has it's "scams" ready to take the advantage of the situation. Majority of Jewish Poles had nothing to do with communism and these Jewish communists. As on your comment with about Poles having trouble to come in term with their past.. I'm afraid that this is a Jewish problem as well.--Jacurek (talk) 04:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If you think that the hatred shown by Poles towards the Jews after the war has some sort of legimitate basis, then well, whatever. I'm not going to get into an edit-war over this. Your contribution might be historically inaccurate, but perhaps it's more important for the outside world to see that Poles are still very anti-semitic 40 years after the March '68. --Chernyshevsky (talk) 15:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

What is anti-Semitic about it ? I don't understand your thoughts....and besides, I'm not even %100 Polish and I don't live in Poland..--Jacurek (talk) 21:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

PZPR or PUWP?
The article uses both the Polish acronym PZPR and the English acronym PUWP for the Polish United Workers' Party, which could be confusing to readers unfamiliar with the subject (like me). PUWP is used in a quotation in the section "Antisemitism in the People's Republic of Poland" (although the citation needs to be improved); PZPR is used in the "Aftermath" section. I don't know much about Polish history, so I don't know which acronym is used most often in English-language sources on the subject. If the Rozenbaum quotation is accurate, perhaps the PZPR usage in the "Aftermath" section should be changed to PUWP. Alternatively, if PZPR is used most frequently in English-language sources, the phrase "the ruling Communist Polish United Workers' Party (PUWK)" should be changed to "the ruling Communist Polish United Workers' Party (PUWK, or PZPR in Polish". The article shouldn't use both acronyms without explanation. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 14:37, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

C-class
This article fails B-class, if barely. Referencing "Aftermath" section should be enough to upgrade the rating. More pictures would help, too. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 04:56, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

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Dead link 2
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Copyediting needed
I have removed some journalistic slogans: "a party boss", "thundered" etc., but the article has to be reedited for POV and grammar, e.g.: A media campaign of besmirching the targeted groups and individuals was conducted from March 11. The Stalinist and Jewish ("non-Polish") roots of the supposed instigators were "exposed" and most printed press participated in the propagation of slander...

Zezen (talk) 08:03, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

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Agglomerations? Why not locations?
User:JackintheBox, could you change agglomerations which is a big Latin word that is hard to comprehend to locations or something else in understandable English? Kyivgw (talk) 11:29, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, since I'm a native English speaker I don't think 'agglomeration' is hard to comprehend; in fact it's not even a rare word. But since you suggested it, I'll change the word to 'cities' since it is simpler. Regards J ACKINTHE  B  OX   • TALK 11:43, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Spasybi. Kyivgw (talk) 12:22, 18 October 2020 (UTC)