Talk:1981 Irish hunger strike/Archive 2

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 18:40, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

1981 Irish hunger strike → ? – First hunger strike occurred in 1980. Second occurred in 1981. Should the title be 1980 and 1981 Irish hunger strike? Since incidents occurred in Northern Ireland, change "Irish" to "Northern Irish" or "Northern Ireland"? --Relisted. Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:21, 10 May 2014 (UTC) --George Ho (talk) 09:09, 29 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Question. Did these hunger strikes overlap into one bigger hunger strike, or were they just two separate hunger strikes that were close in chronology? Twyfan714 (talk) 00:29, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The first strike lasted until December 1980. Second started on March 1981. IRA members were still in prison during the three-month gap of both strikes. --George Ho (talk) 01:07, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Mildly support. While I think it is a bit of stretch to talk about the connection between the two strikes (which is just the IRA members in prison), in the end, they practically overlap, so I'd say merge into two. I also support moving it to "Northern Irish" as well. Twyfan714 (talk) 12:55, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe IRA instead of "Northern Irish"? --George Ho (talk) 20:42, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm...that depends. If just members of the IRA were involved, then I'd say yes. Otherwise, that would be a no. Twyfan714 (talk) 21:04, 1 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep the 1981 hunger strike is the important one as it resulted in 10 deaths. Moving it to IRA should be opposed as it included members of the INLA, including 3 of the 10 deaths. PatGallacher (talk) 15:20, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * There seem to be several questions that will determine whether or not this should be moved and if so, what it should be moved to:
 * 1) Were these two separate strikes or were they linked in some way?


 * In this case, per George Ho (assuming he is correct), they were separated by three months, but during that time, some members of the IRA were in prison when it occurred. While that is a bit of a stretch, imo, it has enough to where it could warrant a move, but I could definitely see why one would be opposed.


 * 2) Did either of the strikes involve just the IRA, or were others involved?


 * Assuming PatGallacher is correct, then that would be the latter. With that in mind, it shouldn't be moved to anything with "IRA" in the title.


 * 3) Did the strikes solely occur in Northern Ireland?


 * If they did, then the title should be moved to Northern Ireland. If that is not the case, then it shouldn't be moved to that title.


 * 4) Was the first strike in 1980 notable enough to be included?


 * PatGallacher seems to imply that the one in 1981 was more famous and notable than the one in 1980. This then raises the question of the notability of the first strike.


 * Seems like until these questions are answered, we cannot get a solid consensus on this. Twyfan714 (talk) 18:03, 2 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Relisting comment: This debate needs input from more editors. I will notify WT:IE and WT:NIR.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:21, 10 May 2014 (UTC)




 * Oppose. The title as it stands is fairly clunky but any of the alternatives proposed – expanding "Irish" to "Northern Irish" or "1981" to "1980 and 1981" – would only make it clunkier, without making the topic of the article any clearer. Scolaire (talk) 16:49, 11 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose I think the focus of the article is mainly around the 1981 hunger strike. Yes, there was a hunger strike in 1980, but this seems to be more of a precursor to the 1981 strike. Maybe the 1980 section could be merged into the "background" section.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 10:57, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Thatcher's secret dealings with the IRA?
I found articles discussing the matter. The article is currently Featured, so this may affect its status. Links: --George Ho (talk) 09:22, 29 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Secret? Not really. The release of supposedly "secret" documents from the government archive doesn't always release new information into the public domain. Quite often people involved in events referred to in documents have already gone on record in interviews or released their own memoirs/autobiographies, as is the case is this situation. Occasionally the release of documents will provide new information or greater clarity on events, if that is the case you are welcome to edit the article to include this. But it already does cover the negotiations in places, so without a specific complaint it is difficult to proceed. Regards. 176.253.247.109 (talk) 18:39, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just modified 4 external links on 1981 Irish hunger strike. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071023214806/http://republican-news.org/archive/2001/March08/061981.html to http://republican-news.org/archive/2001/March08/061981.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070831040451/http://republican-news.org/archive/1997/May08/08ina.html to http://republican-news.org/archive/1997/May08/08ina.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071023214706/http://republican-news.org/archive/2001/March22/22exhi.html to http://republican-news.org/archive/2001/March22/22exhi.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071023215140/http://republican-news.org/archive/2001/April19/12derr.html to http://republican-news.org/archive/2001/April19/12derr.html

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Why only Maze prisoners?
Why did only inmates of the Maze take part in the 1981 hunger strike? Was there a reason to limit it to one location? Jim Michael (talk) 02:09, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Suicide
Hunger strikes to the death are suicides accompanied by demands. Suicide cats were removed when mentioning a ref which doesn't say that they're not. Being a form of protest doesn't mean that they're not suicide as well. This states: 'The hunger strike is a peculiar kind of suicide'. Jim Michael (talk) 17:46, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The article says The original pathologist's report recorded the hunger strikers' cause of death as "self-imposed starvation". This was later amended to simply "starvation", after protests from the dead strikers' families. The coroner recorded verdicts of "starvation, self-imposed". The first paragraph of the reference cited even states It is that a number of people do not see such deaths as suicides, so your claim that mentioning a ref which doesn't say that they're not is false.


 * Not classed as suicide by the coroner, Catholic church in Ireland or treated as a fact by references. Stop presenting your opinions as facts. FDW777 (talk) 18:01, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The coroner said self-imposed starvation - that's a type of suicide. Some people not seeing them as suicides isn't the same thing as them not being suicides. Some people think various things that aren't true, including that the earth is flat & that Sydney is the capital of Australia - that's very different from those things being true. Stop misrepresenting the sources you use. Jim Michael (talk) 18:47, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * That's your opinion, I disagree as does policy. If he'd meant suicide, he'd have said suicide. He didn't. Per Categorization Categorization must also maintain a neutral point of view and editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when creating categories or adding them to articles. Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial. The reference clearly establishes a viewpoint that the hunger strikes weren't suicide, and also establishes that the coroner didn't class them as suicide, thus failing both points mentioned. You might also want to read the Irish Times for the debate about how to class their deaths. FDW777 (talk) 07:11, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Need sources please
The strike radicalised Irish nationalist politics and was the driving force that enabled Sinn Féin to become a mainstream political party - The one source listed is an out of print book and therefore not allowed re Wiki rules. Can anyone who has relevant sources please add them so we can add this claim back to the article2A00:23C4:220:CF01:98E2:438B:BA39:EAF1 (talk) 15:20, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The book is available to buy, or to borrow from a library. FDW777 (talk) 15:21, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * See WP:SOURCEACCESS, claimed (the book is available to purchase new) difficulty of access does not affect usability. FDW777 (talk) 15:24, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * See wiki rules, you need sources, not source, and those sources need to be available for all to see. The book is out of print and you can not buy it at all, you are wrong. It is also strange that straight away another similar editor to you has joined your revert war, can I ask that you only have one account on wiki? 2A00:23C4:220:CF01:98E2:438B:BA39:EAF1 (talk) 15:27, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I've just linked you to the rules, you are wrong. Take your pick of these places to buy from. FDW777 (talk) 15:30, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * FDW777 do you have only one account on Wiki, second time of asking? 2A00:23C4:220:CF01:98E2:438B:BA39:EAF1 (talk) 15:32, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * If you have evidence of sockpuppetry, I suggest you file a case at WP:SPI. FDW777 (talk) 15:32, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Already have my friend 2A00:23C4:220:CF01:98E2:438B:BA39:EAF1 (talk) 15:34, 3 October 2021 (UTC)


 * please self-revert your change. This isn't a remotely disputed point, everyone who has written about the subject agrees Sinn Féin's change from a political party that didn't even contenst elections occurred as a direct result of the election of Bobby Sands. FDW777 (talk) 18:07, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * There's an entire book about that specific point in fact. FDW777 (talk) 18:38, 3 October 2021 (UTC)