Talk:1987 Pacific hurricane season

GA hold
I am putting this article on hold because of a few prose problems and because a bit more information is needed.


 * It would improve the descriptions of the storms if you explained where they were somehow, either using distances to familiar landmasses or the coordinate system. It is difficult to understand the descriptions when they say the hurricane moved a certain direction if you don't know where they started out.
 * I noticed that the dots marking the storm's path in some images change color - this is not explained to the reader anywhere on the page. I assumed the different colors indicated different hurricane strengths, but I was not sure.

Prose:
 * The activity this season continued the trend of above average numbers of tropical storms. - When did this trend begin?
 * Two tropical storms moved in from the east. - This is vague - from where to where?
 * The above two have been changed. The first part has been taken out. The second one has been changed to mention the basin boundary of 140 W. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 23:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Two tropical storms moved in from the entered this basin from the east by crossing 140°W - This doesn't make sense. Awadewit | talk  22:22, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Changed again. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 21:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * During its life, Adrian paralled the Mexican shoreline far offshore before cyclonically looping over its path when it was a depression. - What does "cyclonically" mean? I'm no hurricane expert, obviously. Perhaps such words could be defined for the uninitiated?
 * Changed to counter-clockwise. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 23:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Beatriz never approached land and with impact, if any, being unknown. - awkward phrasing
 * A tropical disturbance organized into a tropical depression on 22 July - can a depression "organize"?
 * Changed the wording. A disturbance can organize into a tropical depression, but cleaned up the wording anyway.  Thegreatdr 16:28, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * As of 2007, Hurricane Eugene or its remnants are responsible for the highest tropical cyclone caused rainfall since 1983 - awkward phrasing
 * Fixed. Thegreatdr 15:48, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * For unclear reasons, the name Knut was retired after this season. Possible explanations include difficulties in pronunciation, the name having some sort of unacceptable meaning in a language, or because the cyclone was a major natural disaster. - This is confusing - the paragraph above said that it never touched land - was there some other natural disaster named "Knut"? If so, you need to mention it and link to it.
 * Dealt with. Since wikipedia is supposed to read like an encyclopedia, idle speculation shouldn't be within the article.  It was removed.  Thegreatdr 15:51, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I still don't understand what the "other natural disaster" is referring to. Awadewit | talk  22:22, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Because of an El Niño, a "cloud cluster" situated southeast of Hawaii gathered enough convection and a closed circulation to become Tropical Depression Two-C on 21 September. - Is it correct to say "an El Nino" or simply "El Nino"? I'm not sure.
 * Context makes it clear that saying "an El Nino" refers to a specific El Nino event. Just saying "El Nino" refers to the phenomenon as a whole. Thus, in this page, "an El Nino" means "The El Nino of 1987". Does that clarify? Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 23:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "An El Nino" would then seem to refer to any El Nino, not specifically the 1987 El Nino. Why not specify "the 1987 El Nino", then? Awadewit | talk  23:53, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I changed the sentence, although personally I'd think that since the article is about the 1987 Pacific hurricane season, there would be enough context to indicate that the dates are in 1987. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 21:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I would hope so, too, but readers can be remarkably daft. It's nice to give them some reminders along the way. Awadewit | talk  22:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Minor suggestion: If you have any questions about this review, please let me know. When you have finished the revisions, drop me a line on my talk page and I will re-review it. Awadewit | talk  12:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It might be nice to have an image next to the lead.
 * I agree. Can someone add/create a season map for the upper right corner?  Thegreatdr 15:55, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Done :P Use the updated infobox code please, makes stuff easier. File is uploaded but not in article as of yet due to nasty syntax.--Nilfanion (talk) 00:14, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The image is a red-link for some reason. Awadewit | talk  22:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's because the image is at Image:1987 Pacific hurricane season summary.jpg - the old infobox code this article uses does not support a filename other than what you see as a redlink. The new code is there, I'll implement in a min. Sorted--Nilfanion (talk) 23:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I would add that the article needs one satellite image for each storm as well. Thegreatdr 16:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The speculation about Knut should be readded. It isnot mine but the WMO's. Read page 9-5 here. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 20:28, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Each named system has a satellite image now. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 23:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Note: Please don't strike out other people's comments. It is like changing their wording - the reviewer decides if the objection has been addressed and does the striking. Editors often use something like ✅ to remind themselves of what they have completed. Thanks. Awadewit | talk  21:08, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I have one comment. Seeing as Unisys is a private site, and it uses data from the EPAC best track, I think it would be better to cite the best track instead. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 23:52, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The Unisys data is much easier to understand by a person. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 20:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's still not official, though. I think officialness is better than ease of use. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 22:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Other featured (namely, higher than Good) material, such as the List of Delaware hurricanes, the List of Baja California Peninsula hurricanes, and the List of New Jersey hurricanes, use Unisys. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 22:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Madeline on this article. However on the Atlantic FAs easyhurdat should be used:it has anchors to direct link to the storms; unlike the full hurdat, and is readable.--Nilfanion (talk) 00:14, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What about using both? It is always better to have mutually-reinforcing sources, anyway. Awadewit | talk  22:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason is they aren't mutually reinforcing when they are the same data sets (as opposed to two distinct news articles on a topic). Ease of use should take priority here IMO.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Could you argue that one is for lay readers and one is for more expert readers and on those grounds include both? Awadewit | talk  15:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the one is for expert readers, but is the official data set for the basin; the other (Unisys) uses the expert data and makes it easy to use and see. As Unisys, which is used, only uses the official yet difficult to read data, sourcing it is sourcing the best track, so it comes down to using what's the best source, or the source easiest to use. I personally prefer the expert data, but I'm not sure what's best here. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 15:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Better yet: take the best track data and dump it to wikisource in easyhurdat format ;) That is a longer term thing well beyond this specific article though - as long as the numbers are referenced here who cares?--Nilfanion (talk) 16:25, 4 August 2007 (UTC) Sorry that is outside wikisource scope...--Nilfanion (talk) 01:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

GA fail
I am failing this article, since the seven days have elapsed and there are still outstanding issues (namely, giving the location of each hurricane and resolving the source debate). Awadewit | talk  00:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Problems with the 1987 Pacific hurricane season you should be aware of
I went down to TPC to fish out TD numbers for pre-1988 seasons in the eastern Pacific and pre-1980 Atlanic hurricane seasons. The 1987 hurricane season report was never written up, for whatever reason, by Redwood City. Also, NHC does not have storm wallets of eastern Pacific tropical cyclones prior to 1988. This means if there is ever going to be inclusion of information about the TDs of the 1987 Pacific hurricane season (apparently TD1, TD3, TD4, and TD7) it is going to have to be researched from the hurricane archive online or through the microfilm map series contained at the Central NOAA library at Silver Spring, MD or the NHC surface analysis archive at FIU, in Sweetwater, FL. Somehow, CPHC will have to get their facts straight about Fernanda, which was TD10 that year, not TD9. The only reason I know of the 1987 Pacific tropical depressions is because I tracked them in real-time when I was 14 years old, and still have the tracking charts (who knew they would ever come in this handy nowadays.) I did find surprising information for TDs in the early 1970s in the Atlantic basin, but that will be added to the TC project talk page. Thegreatdr (talk) 14:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * (Speculating) Out of curiosity, how do we know that one of the earlier depressions wasn't downgraded; ie declared to have never been a tropical cyclone? Maybe that's why the CPHC says Fernanda was TD9 not TD10. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 00:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If San Francisco eliminated their records, didn't write up a season summary (implying no post season review), and NHC never got their materials, I'd say it was a low probability scenario. TD 7 was a long-lived TD which approached 140W.  TD 4 and TD 3 lived about one day.  TD 1 I missed somehow, but the depression numbers I have written down would have been derived from the Weather Channel, and before that advisories from EPHC.  However, this is the era where NHC reassigned numbering, so perhaps San Francisco did as well (though I haven't uncovered any evidence to support this statement in the case of EPHC.)  I'm not sure we'll ever know.  I could try contacting the author of their annual summaries, but if nothing was ever published stating that a TD was dropped after the fact, within this project we can't assume a TD was removed either.  Thegreatdr (talk) 13:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Is there any pressure data for these systems or did it get lost in the bonfire?Potapych (talk) 00:11, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * From what I was told, the raw HURDAT itself was about all that was ever passed along from Redwood City, and HURDAT does not include TDs which remained below TS strength. It would require a map search to retrieve this information, which will eventually be done.  For now, in the database I use for my rainfall project, I'm only adding a couple TDs which impacted Mexico/Lower 48/Puerto Rico which are not already within the NHC Atlantic non-development database from the late 60s/early 70s.  I'm planning on requesting TD information already within ATCF for the eastern Pacific from 1988-1992, which will include pressure information.  For the most part, pressure information does not reside within the Atlantic non-development database.  The database used/added to for the cliqr project is located here.  Thegreatdr (talk) 20:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Another thing, are you sure the report for the season does not exist? I found a citation for it at Vol 116 pp. 2106-2177. Cross, R.L.Potapych (talk) 23:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Where? I can't find any page 2106 in the 1988 (Volume 116) MWR. Do you have the exact document with the reference? Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 04:35, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I only found a citation, not the document itself. It's probably in a library somewhere. Potapych (talk) 21:26, 28 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 18:25, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * If someone finds a link to this article, throw it either within the article or talk page. It does not appear to exist when searching through the American Meteorological Society's website.  We likely have a print copy at work, but I won't be able to retrieve it until December 15.  Thegreatdr (talk) 21:26, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * If you find a copy, could you scan it and upload it somewhere? Then we can use webcite to make a permanent archive. I just tried it on a regular image . Potapych (talk) 21:51, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

(indent reset) Indeed, the MWR skips this document. The page for 1988 says: "Issue 10 pages 1829 - 2105" and above that "Issue 11  pages 2121 - 2413" (emphasis added). The 16 pages between 2105 and 2121, where the seasonal report would be, are missing. Bizarre. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 21:49, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * In another effort, I checked the Web of Science online...no luck. We'll have to search for a paper copy.  Thegreatdr (talk) 01:37, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Has anyone found a paper copy? Perhaps in some university library? Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 22:29, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I did get a digitized copy from our local library. The tropical depression numbers are in question between what I found in their document, and what I had copied down in real-time.  It is possible that San Francisco renumbered the TDs after the fact (d'oh!)  I'm planning to go to the Silver Spring library to check out the surface analysis microfilm to help determine what's going on with the TD numbers that year.  Thegreatdr (talk) 22:40, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Recent OR?
No offense, but recently there has been recent OR in the article. While nobody owns articles, should the semi re-writes of the first three storms be reverted? YE  Tropical   Cyclone  05:28, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

To Do
YE (User talk:Yellow_Evan), if you want to get this article up to good article status, then you will need to do some things:


 * Include where they formed, where they dissipated, distances to familiar cities, and things like that. I recommend using Google Earth.


 * Find other sources, they are out there somewhere.

I'm only including those two since they are the biggest problems. TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk) 18:13, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not know how to fix the issue. If you read the talk page, you will realize that the 1987 MWS summary is missing. Thus, the only non-impact source is hundrat. I have searched Google news for possible impact sources a week ago, and got some info, but that is about it. YE  Tropical   Cyclone  20:11, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not have google earth, and although I know a site that would help be a little bit with this, it is unreliable. Ill send this off to GAN soon. YE  Tropical   Cyclone  15:48, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * You don't really need Google earth to indicate where formation, dissipation, and peak strength occurred. You just need the NHC Lat/Lon calculator. When you need to put "the storm formed off the coast of Mexico", you can specify by saying "the storm formed 300 miles south of Acapulco". Just pick whatever city it's closest to. --♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 15:57, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem is that it asks for Longitude/Latidue lines, and I do not know specficly where Cobo San Lucas or Manzillo is located. YE  Tropical   Cyclone  21:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Just look it up... this is an encyclopedia. --♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 05:06, 20 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The tropical depressions need to be added to this article, even if it is in an other storms section. Thegreatdr (talk) 23:38, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Added. YE  Tropical   Cyclone  15:49, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that the new section you added was like having no section at all. You need to get a copy of that monthly weather review article to add the information.  The article won't pass GA like this, because the TDs will need to be added to the timeline as well.  Thegreatdr (talk) 15:52, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I am aware of this, but how can I get a copy? Thank you. YE  Tropical   Cyclone  15:59, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Either check ametsoc.org to see if they've added the article, or go to a library that has copies of Monthly Weather Review from 1988/1989. University libraries are most likely to have them.  If you are in the D.C. area, there are two NOAA libraries which would have copies.  Thegreatdr (talk) 16:03, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I just checked, and it is not on the AMS site. I'd doubt the only university near me, UNLV, would have paper copies because you can not major in meteorology there. Should I give up on this article? YE  Tropical   Cyclone  16:13, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Try contacting UNLV. Even if they don't have a met program, they could have the MWR periodical.  Your other option would be to e-mail one of the NOAA libraries and get them to scan a copy for you.  Thegreatdr (talk) 16:22, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I searched the UNLV library catalog, and there was only one MWR article, an article related to the weather events between 1960-1973. Ill email the NHC about this problem, and we'll see if they can scan a copy for me. YE  Tropical   Cyclone  16:54, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * While it doesn't have to be NHC, it would probably be good if they were aware of the problem. Thegreatdr (talk) 16:56, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I've emailed the NHC about this issue. YE  Tropical   Cyclone  17:16, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I found the journal listing here, FWIW. Juliancolton (talk) 21:26, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The NHC emailed me back and said I'd have to work with the AMS about this issue. YE  Tropical   Cyclone  22:07, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thought that would be the response. Technically, this is not their issue.  It was worth letting them know though.  Thegreatdr (talk) 22:08, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I found the MWR. Here it is--12george1 (talk) 03:32, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Dead link
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/tracks1949to2007_epa.txt
 * In 1959 Mexico hurricane on 2011-05-25 03:38:59, 404 Not Found
 * In 1975 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-05-25 04:40:15, 404 Not Found
 * In 1991 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-05-25 05:56:22, 404 Not Found
 * In 2001 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-05-25 07:11:09, 404 Not Found
 * In 2006 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-05-26 02:11:28, 404 Not Found
 * In 1959 Mexico hurricane on 2011-06-04 18:43:32, 404 Not Found
 * In 1959 Mexico hurricane on 2011-06-04 21:55:32, 404 Not Found
 * In 1968 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-06-06 13:54:59, 404 Not Found
 * In 1975 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-06-06 21:14:29, 404 Not Found
 * In 1991 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-06-08 00:41:50, 404 Not Found
 * In 1994 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-06-08 02:35:20, 404 Not Found
 * In 2001 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-06-10 07:39:34, 404 Not Found
 * In 2002 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-06-11 04:44:21, 404 Not Found
 * In 2006 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-06-14 06:29:16, 404 Not Found
 * In 1959 Mexico hurricane on 2011-06-24 03:16:25, 404 Not Found
 * In 1975 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-06-24 04:44:29, 404 Not Found
 * In 1987 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-06-24 07:03:53, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 07:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 2
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=t5EqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=olkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6844,5976242&dq=hurricane+eugene&hl=en
 * In 1987 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-05-25 05:39:54, 404 Not Found
 * In 1987 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-06-24 07:04:16, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 07:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 3
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/sgx/research/Guide/weatherhistory.pdf
 * In 1939 California tropical storm on 2011-05-25 03:13:36, 404 Not Found
 * In 1987 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-05-25 05:39:55, 404 Not Found
 * In 1939 California tropical storm on 2011-06-04 16:00:08, 404 Not Found
 * In 1951–1964 Pacific hurricane seasons on 2011-06-04 17:40:09, 404 Not Found
 * In 1939 California tropical storm on 2011-06-24 02:23:18, 404 Not Found
 * In 1987 Pacific hurricane season on 2011-06-24 07:04:28, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 07:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

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