Talk:1988 killings in Hyderabad, Sindh

Name
I'm trying to find if this event is really called "massacre" in RS, but it seems more RS call it as "Black Friday" or simply describe the events without a name. As such, the "massacre" in the title seems POV. Requesting, etc for input.VR talk 00:40, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sure. I agree we need solid references before we use terms like ‘massacre’, because usually that implies a complicity of some sort. I’d be fine with using ‘killings’ or something similar too.  Mar4d  ( talk ) 04:43, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @ Vice regent  Economic and Political Weekly ref seem to insinuate complicity of some sort but uses word 'killings'.  The Tribune ref  seem to use word  carnage.  It seems to be indiscriminate killings so descriptively word 'massacre' may not be entirely wrong.  Urdu Wikipedia seem to use title September  30 event, but that too is incomplete title  and shy to call spade a spade. In RS  word Black Friday is used as descriptive and not in the titles. Idk how far coloring of Friday  gives justice to Friday and how far to those killed; euphemistic title nor would give idea to readers  what the article is all about.
 * The title I would suggest is some thing like  'September  30, 1988 killings in Hyderabad, Sindh '.
 * Thanks &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 06:29, 29 August 2022 (UTC)  &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 06:29, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I think "1988 Hyderabad killings" would be most WP:CONCISE. I'll propose a RM.VR talk 03:46, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 30 August 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved to 1988 killings in Hyderabad, Sindh. With considerations to the previous discussion that had taken place just a day before this RM is opened, there is a consensus to move the page. However, as raised by several participants, the proposed title will confuse and astonish readers, thus moving to the alternate proposed title. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 02:06, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

1988 Hyderabad, Sindh massacre → 1988 Hyderabad killings – As discussed in the section above, the current name is a WP:POVNAME. "Killings" was suggested as least POV. VR talk 03:51, 30 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 15:31, 11 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:39, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Courtesy pings to, as they participated in the discussion above.VR talk 03:51, 30 August 2022 (UTC)


 * IMHO Since there are more than one  Hyderabad (disambiguation) and the other (Indian Hyderabad) one being more prominent; to avoid reader confusion suggested new title would deserve  little more WP:PRECISION by including word Sindh in the title.
 * May be → 1988 Hyderabad (Sindh) killings or 1988 killings in Hyderabad, Sindh
 * &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 04:46, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Those suggestions are acceptable to me. The reason I didn't propose that was that there was no significant killings (AFAIK) in any other Hyderabad in 1988. So, for example, we have 2013 South Valley homicides even though South Valley is a disambig page that can refer to several different places, but we don't need to disambiguate in that case because (presumably) other South Valleys did not experience shootings in 2013. Same with 2012 Webster shooting (Webster refers to several different places), 2012 College Station shooting (College Station refers to several different places), Hesston shooting (Hesston refers to several different places) and 2003 Ennis shooting (when Ennis primarily refers to a different city). But we also have examples of very specific titles like 2012 Aurora, Colorado shooting and 2021 Sunrise, Florida shootout. I'm fine either way.VR talk 13:45, 30 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Support more in line with WP:NPOV per nom.  Mar4d  ( talk ) 13:46, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * comment the proposed title has element of WP:SURPRISE, as Hyderabad refers to the city in India. The proposed title gives a false impression/idea that killings took place in Indian city. More appropriate title can be 1988 killings in Hyderabad, Sindh, if reliable sources make more use of "killings" than "massacre" (common name). —usernamekiran (talk) 13:26, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject Pakistan has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 15:32, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: WikiProject Terrorism has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 15:32, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose. This Hyderabad must be disambiguated from Hyderabad. The proposed will confuse and astonish. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:32, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Historical accounts don't add up
First of all, it couldn't have happened during the Zia regime because Zia was assassinated on August 17, 1988.

Which brings us to the second issue, it couldn't have happened in September 1988 because it would mean the caretaker govt did it. It's in no historical reference if it was such a case. It's well known that this operation was against MQM but MQM participated in the 1988 elections under the name of "haq parast group".

Thirdly, now that it's evident that this couldn't be done by a dead dictator or the caretaker govt, it most certainly was done during the first Benazir govt. Which makes sense because MQM had a falling out with the PPP govt in 1989 after spending a year in the coalition govt in Sindh. In May 1990 there was a notorious search operation carried out by the same govt in Hyderabad's "Pucca Qilla" (https://tribune.com.pk/story/1420945/mqm-observes-27th-anniversary-pucca-qila-tragedy) so a logical conclusion would be September 1990 instead of September 1988. 2400:ADC1:194:EA00:C52E:70FE:341:E471 (talk) 13:40, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * All of the cited sources say 1988. As it happens, I was caught up in the curfew in the city - and 1988 is the only year in which I have ever visited Pakistan. JezGrove (talk) 17:55, 28 March 2024 (UTC)