Talk:1997 Jarrell tornado

Is the "Dead Man Walking" tornado photograph copyrighted?
I know that it was taken by Scott Beckwith, who allowed the NWS to use his images of the tornado and damage. Would this mean that the "Dead Man Walking" photo is PD? MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 20:53, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The only way it would be PD is if and only if you can locate it on a .gov URL. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:57, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll see. It is one of the most famous tornado photographs ever taken, and would 100% be needed in this article if it is PD. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 20:59, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I found the photo sequence on a .gov PDF published by the NWS about the tornado, and Scott Beckwith is attributed to it. I'm pretty sure the photo is not copyrighted, as every photo I have seen from Beckwith so far has either been given to the NWS and put in PD or just doesn't have a copyright. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 21:08, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I have found the entire sequence. I will upload them shortly. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 23:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * PUT NON-FREE RATIONALE ON IT!! Based on a talk page on WP:WEATHER, it is likely that the picture IS copyrighted. It needs to either have a non-free rationale or it needs to be DELETED. 12.74.221.43 (talk) 15:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'l try to get it listed under non-free rationale, it is vital to the article itself. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 15:31, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And I’ll add that some images on a .gov url are NOT public domain. 12.74.221.43 (talk) 15:31, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Some. National Weather Service images are public domain, this has been confirmed. Same goes for NOAA, which is where most of these images are from. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 15:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There is only two clauses for things not being public domain on the .gov websites: (1) it has the copyright watermark (©) on the image or (2) it is by Getty Images. There are 0 other exceptions, as determined by the Commons. Attribution watermarks (even if large ones) do not count. I am just making that note since it was brought up that some things aren't free-to-use on .gov websites. See Template:PD-NWS on the Commons for further information. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:37, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I’d like a link to the site where the image is. 12.74.221.43 (talk) 17:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This is literally the reason the image is being deleted. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 18:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * https://www.weather.gov/media/pub/pdf/sdata/051997.pdf it clearly states that the person who took the picture was NOT an employee of the National Weather Service. I’ll do some digging but let’s continue assuming that it’s copyrighted until we know for sure. 12.74.221.43 (talk) 03:52, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Can’t find anything on the disclaimer at NCDC about copyright. But nothing saying anything is copyrighted (or in the public domain either). 12.74.221.43 (talk) 03:58, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

This is stupid at this point. English Wikipedia does not determine copyright stuff, the Commons does. If there is a problem with any image, open a discussion on the Commons. The direct image which started this discussion File:Dead Man Walking Jarrell 1997.jpg is currently on the Commons. The other image referenced by others and the one currently in use on the article, File:Dead man walking Jarrell.jpg is, as far as I am aware, public domain due to being used, without a copyright watermark, on a .gov URL website. If you believe otherwise, nominate it for deletion on the Commons. I am closing this discussion as this has turned from a discussion about the content to more or less a forum with the same repeated question, which is already solved/answered (or will be answered within the week on the Commons). The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 05:39, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Draft-space Discussion
I am going to be guiding through the process of creating a solid article. For ease of discussion, I am using the good article criteria layout, however this is not a formal GAN or anything like that. Just making that note for future editors. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:55, 11 May 2024 (UTC)


 * 1a
 * Prose templated from the 2023 Pasadena-Deer Park GA (also WeatherWriter that is an amazing article by the way). All good here! :D   MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 20:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 1b
 * Pretty good here, we have a short description (one of the few things I'm experienced in) that is formatted correctly, correctly-used and informative infobox, the "main article" or "see also" templates are used correctly as well. Headers and sub-headers are also worded properly, and paragraphs are properly sectioned out! :)   MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 20:24, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2a
 * Good citation-wise, citations still need to be checked for verifability. 2a is a-good. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 20:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 2b


 * 2c
 * So this point is about no WP:OR, otherwise known as no original research. I will start doing some verifiability checks, which basically mean checking the source to see if what it is cited for is, in fact, in the source. I added a few failed verification templates in the meteorological synopsis section. In theory, you should be able to hover (not click) over the "failed verification" link, and it should show you the note I left about it. If it doesn't show the note when you hover over it, let me know. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 05:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, for whatever failed verification thing pops up, I can fix it. :) MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 05:27, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * 2d
 * After running EarWig (check can be found | here), there were only 2 publications that have over a 10% similarity to the main draft, and none go over 20%. Looking good copyvio-wise, I am going to attempt to whittle similarities down to under 10%, and we should be fine from there. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 13:37, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Disregard above statement, the 19% similarity comes from the repeated use of "May 27, 1997" and "Double Creek Estates". All good copy-vio wise! :) MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 13:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3a
 * Everything that could possibly be addressed about this demon of a tornado has been addressed, including the "Dead Man Walking photograph" and "Fatalities" sections. I'll double check to see what needs added, but as of right now, in my eyes, it looks fine section-wise! Edit: Page is now 32,000+ bytes, bigger than the article for the 2011 Hackleburg-Phil Campbell tornado. Length-wise, we are 1000% good. :D MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 05:02, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 3b
 * The article is pretty detailed, but it follows the typical format for tornado articles, and doesn't give things that would make the article harder to read or make people look up definitions. Pretty good here :) MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 13:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 4
 * I honestly don't know how a tornado article wouldn't be neutral, but yeah. Article meets NPOV. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 04:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, weather articles almost always just automatically pass this point. An example of a weather-article where this point would actually need to be carefully looked at is like Hurricane Katrina disaster relief or 2023 Rolling Fork–Silver City tornado. Basically once politics are involved or mentioned in the article (or general controversies like on 2011 Smithville tornado), this point becomes important. For a more or less science/history article, it doesn't really apply. At the end, we can double check this point to make sure the article passes it. Currently, that point would only possibly apply to the "Reactions" section in the article, as that starts becoming less-science/history and more reaction-history, which has a chance to lead to NPOV things. But, like I said, almost every weather article just passes it without any issues. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 04:53, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Nice! :) MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 05:00, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * 5
 * This happened in 1997, and there is no edit warring or current change that could happen here. 5 has been fulfilled. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 04:57, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 6a
 * First off here, over on the Commons, a URL-source needs to be added for File:1997 Jarrell forming.png & File:1997 Jarrell tornado roping.png. Basically, in the "Source" section of each image, the URL itself just needs to be dropped, rather than "National Weather Service". An example of what I mean can be seen on File:Jarrell tornado 1997.jpg. The other images in the article already have solid free-use licenses and can be easily verified with such. So, honestly step 1 (since it involves the Commons and copyright stuff) would be to add the exact source for those two images. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:02, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, I have both of the sources, they were on the NWS website and published by the NWS. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 21:09, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You can link the URL here and I could fix the images over on the Commons, or you could. For direct changes: For both image "Source" sections, change "National Weather Service" ---> URL (just copy/paste it) . That is the only change that needs to happen. The "Author" section can stay "NWS", but the website URL needs to be on there instead of just "National Weather Service". The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:31, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. Let me do that real quick :) MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 21:34, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Sweet! So as of this message at least, all eight images in the article are free-to-use and all have acceptable copyright licenses. If this was a formal good article nomination (GAN), this point would pass. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 22:22, 11 May 2024 (UTC)


 * 6b
 * All images make sense for the article at the time of this message. If this was a formal good article nomination (GAN), this point would pass. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 22:22, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay. I'll check that off, and I do have more PD damage photos, which I'll upload later. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 22:25, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Whoops, scratch that. I forgot to double check what 6b was, which is suitable captions. Are the images relevant, yes, but that is only part of 6b. Let me do a caption check. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 22:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * For File:1997 Jarrell tornado peak strength.jpg, the caption reads "The 1997 Jarrell F5, as it was at peak strength", however the source for does not state the photograph was taken at peak intensity. As such either (1) a source saying the photograph is the tornado at peak intensity needs to be added in the caption or (2) the caption needs to be rewritten to remove the original research (WP:OR).
 * Same thing for File:1997 Jarrell forming.png & File:1997 Jarrell tornado roping.png, which has the current captions of "The tornado as it was forming" & "The tornado as it was roping out outside of Jarrell". The source with the images does not directly state the tornado was forming/roping out, so a source needs to be added or the caption needs to be rewritten.
 * The other sources have solid captions that are verifiable and good. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 22:40, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll just rewrite the captions. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 22:43, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think we are now good image-wise, as every major part of the article has a companion image MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 23:46, 11 May 2024 (UTC)


 * We can add notes about each point (see Good article criteria for what each point states) and add comments under it similar to a talk page discussion. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:55, 11 May 2024 (UTC)


 * @WeatherWriter The article is looking really good as of right now, the only thing that needs worked on is the citations. :) MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 16:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Article has been assessed as B-class, I'll try to work it to GA :D MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 00:12, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Unfinished sentence in article
In the section "Tracking into Jarrell", the 5th sentence is cutoff: "The tornado tore off asphalt as it crossed County Roads 308, 305, and 307; the thickness of the asphalt pavement was roughly.". Hopefully someone knows the thickness and can complete the sentence. Jamezkoe (talk) 21:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I've got that. The original first edits of the draft were a copy-paste from the outbreak article, but I refined and worded apparently (almost) everything. I'll get to it as soon as possible! :) MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 21:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Reworded* MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 21:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Issue has been fixed. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 00:13, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

The “Fatilities” section should be removed
It seems to be entirely composed of sentences taken directly from previous parts of the articles, word for word. This whole article needs a clean up Jamezkoe (talk) 22:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I looked over it, and can I get an example of where it is copied word for word besides "all 27 fatalities occurred at the Double Creek Estates"? Thanks! :D MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 22:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 1. The following passage exists word for word in Both the "Damage to Jarrell" and "Fatalities" sections: "The high intensity of the Jarrell tornado left those in its path with little recourse; most homes in Double Creek Estates were built on cement slab foundations and few had a basement or any form of storm shelter; nineteen people sought refuge in a single storm cellar." 2. In the previously mentioned "Damage to Jerrell", it states "Three businesses adjacent to Double Creek Estates were also destroyed. In total, the tornado dealt $10–20 million in damage to the neighborhood. Around 300 cattle grazing in a nearby pasture were killed and some were found 0.25 miles away. Hundreds of cattle were also dismembered and a few cows were also skinned by the tornado.". In the fatalities section it says Three businesses adjacent to Double Creek Estates were destroyed. Around 300 cattle grazing in a nearby pasture were killed and some were found 0.25 miles (0.40 km) away. Hundreds of cattle were also dismembered and a few cows were also skinned by the tornado.". Jamezkoe (talk) 08:27, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Btw, I shouldn't have titled it as I did. I think a section dedicated to the victims is wholly deserved, but the state that it's currently in is simply disrespectful. Jamezkoe (talk) 09:25, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. I'll go ahead and change the content/reword it. The fatalities section is 100% needed, as this tornado very unfortunately caused some extremely gruesome and disturbing wounds to people. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 10:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 14 May 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc . talk  09:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

1997 Prairie Dell-Jarrell tornado → 1997 Jarrell tornado – Tornado did not actually directly hit Prairie Dell, and is not needed in the title. Prairie Dell isn't mentioned in most sources for the tornado, and the only reason that it's even in the article was because of the ArcGIS Damage Viewer and Tornado Archive. &#32;MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 21:17, 13 May 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 15:57, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support There was an issue with ArcGIS Damage Viewer and Tornado Archive on my part (both sources are reliable) which showed Prairie Dell closer to the tornado path than it actually was. I have already fixed the content in the article, but the title needs changed to satisfy this. Thanks! :) MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 16:02, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * The event is notable for being the "Jarrell" tornado solely, and should be represented properly in the title as the "1997 Jarrell Tornado." None of the sources refer to the event as the Prairie Dell tornado Wikiwillz (talk) 22:34, 13 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Support – per Wikiwillz.  Chris Wx  🌀 ( talk -  contribs ) 01:31, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Support Notability stems entirely from the impacts in Jarrell. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:13, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Is there a way to close this? It's been 8 days and everyone is in support. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 11:37, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Self promotion claim?
, you rececently removed part of the page + a source under the rational of "self promotion / self published". The author, Marlene Bradford, is a PhD'ed meteorologist from Texas A&M University with a doctorial on tornado forecasting. I think this qualifies as a subject-expert. Btw, the author is academically published in the field of meteorology as well, with a publication in the American Meteorological Society. Could you explain further on your rational for removing it and/or could you re-add the information? The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:28, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The article claimed "Multiple books have been written and published on the subject of the tornado, the most notable being Marlene Bradford's "Incredible Destruction in Central Texas: The Jarrell Tornado"." This is an extraordinary claim supported by no source whatsoever. This is a self-published book, putting it at the bottom of notability of any books dealing with this tornado. Wikipedia does not exist to promote the works of self published authors, no matter how 'qualified' they are. Headbomb (alt) (talk) 19:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, per Weather Event Writer's rationale. Just because it's flagged by a bot doesn't make it a self-promo. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 19:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Don't start an edit war until this discussion is complete. That's not how it is done here. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 19:45, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The "Notable" part has been fixed, everything is good now. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 19:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It hasn't. There's no sources save the self-published book itself. This is spam at worse, and WP:UNDUE at best.Headbomb (alt) (talk) 19:45, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure, it's "spam". I'm done with that part, I'll add something else that does have a reliable source. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 19:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Infobox image
Since there is an active copyright discussion on the "Dead Man Walking" photo, we need a new image for the infobox. Any thoughts? While the tornado was a wedge in its' F5 phase, it also had extremely high windspeeds even as a rope. Honestly anything would represent it. Thanks! :) MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 12:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Nevermind, I have found one that fits. MemeGod ._. (My talk page, my contributions and my creations!) 14:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Infobox image (2)
This is more of a continuation of the previous message, but I found about 30 other photos relating to the tornado that could fit in the info box:

- 1. This one of the tornado at F4+ intensity

-2. The tornado as it was strengthening

-3. The tornado at peak intensity

For other images, see Category:1997 Jarrell tornado on commons.

Wx Trinity ( talk to me! ) 21:00, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

300mph
There is only a single semi-reliable source for 300mph wind speeds, and despite four different citations, neither are truly reliable here. Mississippi-based meteorologist Eric Graves, on a Facebook post, stated "Winds were estimated to be over 300 mph at times", which was followed up by the mysanantonio article. Beyond this is the Plainview Herald article, which states the tornado had "winds up to 318 mph", and the SF Gate article, which I believe is the true original article, which stated victims had "their skin burned by the deadly friction of 300 mph winds." All 4 of these sources appear to be based on the Fujita scale's F5 rating, which ranged from 261-318mph, which was likely picked up by the media who sensationalized the articles by using the high ends of that as those of the tornado itself (the tornado was never confirmed to have winds over 300 miles per hour). I believe claim was fabricated by SF Gate and Plainview Herald independently, then passed onto Eric Graves, who passed it onto mysanantonio. Jarrell has never officially been acknowledged as containing wind speeds over 300mph by the National Weather Service or European Severe Storms Laboratory. It also has never been officially rated on the TORRO scale, regardless of what some uncited and soon-to-be-reverted edits would have you believe. Ideally a good source would come from an expert, in which case Thomas P. Grazulis is probably the one to consult here, but until a reliable source can be found, the article should not state the tornado contained a wind speed of over 300 miles per hour. GeorgeMemulous (talk) 02:46, 12 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I agree with this statement, but mentally it is still hard to accept because how violent and horrifying this tornado was. Алексеев Н. (talk) 11:12, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The highest reliable wind speed we have is >261 mph. I have no idea why people keep adding the 300. Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs - created articles) 12:05, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The damage path...
Tornado Archive does not show full damage path... Beluga732 (talk) 13:08, 19 July 2024 (UTC)