Talk:2004 Israeli operation in the northern Gaza Strip

Civilians
I don't think Israeli civilians should be listed as I.D.F. Nor should Palestinian civilians be listed as H.A.M.A.S., although I suppose they are harder to distinquish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Sham (talk • contribs) 13:24, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Israeli settlement "illegality" in Israel woman's death
Xed, in Wiki's "NPOV" rules, you either have to delete the statement "considered illegal by the UN (general assembly)", or add the other side of it which is that it is NOT considered illegal by Israel or the UN Security Council, both of which have much greater power than the UN General Assembly. The wording is weird if you include the other side, so just delete all references to it, since it doesn't make a difference anyways, unless you want to blame the victim here for her death (which I suspect some want to do, but I'll assume the best about you).

For your request to "give a source", I can't prove a negative (since the UNSC doesn't think it's illegal, there is no "affirming" source). However, the overriding UNSC document is Security Council Resolution 242, which is the source of most of the confusion here. Read below

[]. Note the lack of any supporting evidence for illegality of settlements.

Terrapin 20:36, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Since you can't provide a source, I think it's probably best if you leave these sorts of articles alone as you can't seem to control your bias. Thanks -- Xed 21:02, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about? There is NO source that says the UN Security Council and United States thinks that the settlements are ILLEGAL, because they DON'T think they are illegal.  That's the point (and the source provided, the main source in UNSC, intentionally says NOTHING about it, because it's NOT illegal).  Unless you have a source that says these entities think it is illegal, then, to them, it is NOT.  Basic reading comprehension.  Anyone?  Anyone?  Am I wrong?  Terrapin 21:09, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * If the UNSC doesn't mention them, them why should this article mention UNSC's non-position, unless for reasons of partisanship? Please note that personal attacks and threatening remarks are not allowed on Wikipedia. - Xed 21:25, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Because a non-statement on a position IS a position, particularly in the United Nations Security Council or government policy (do you expect every group to AFFIRM every stance? "The Security Council Resolution 563 States that Milk is good for healthy bones"). And doubly so when the entities mentioned have FAR more clout than the General Assembly.  Hell, the League of Women Voters has more clout and force.  Literally.

It's irrelevant what the UNGA feels about them, since the UNGA is not a body which sets or rules on International law, and its resolutions have no binding force. Jayjg 21:45, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It's not "irrelevant" - it's an expression of most of the world's governments' opinions. - Mustafaa 22:10, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Mustafaa, you are trying to convince thieves and mass murderers that they should be law-abiding citizens. Good luck! --Alberuni 22:19, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Your antisemitic and flaming comments are unacceptable here. If you can't behave like a civilized humen being, then go. This is not the place for hatred-crazed Hamas terrorists nor their hatred-crazed supporters. MathKnight 08:48, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * This discussion was on the legality of the settlements, and my point was that what the UNGA feels is irrelevant to International Law and thus the legality of the settlements. Jayjg 22:48, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Events - Oct 18 dispute
In my last edit put Hamas-affiliated website (as noted by CSmonitor) statement into context by addig "both side claimed victory..." and added IDF Jacob Delal statement (as queted bt CSmonitor) to balance. I think it resolves the differences. Please comment here before starting another edit-war. MathKnight 20:17, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Isn't the name of this operation Days of Repentence? Evolver of Borg 22:11, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * In Hebrew the name is "Yemey Teshuva" where "Teshuva" is literally means "answer" or a "reply". To "return in Teshuva" is to become an adherent religious Jew after you been a secular Jew. "Repentence" can also be valid translation but all the English-speaking news networks use the term "Days of Penitence". MathKnight 14:23, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Different estimates of death tolls provided
What is the issue with them? Jayjg 02:28, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I would think post-operation totals from Associated Press and Reuters would be considered at least neutral, if not pro-Palestinian. Particularly as one of them gets their totals from Palestinian medics. Jayjg 04:01, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm also not sure how providing the range of estimates comprises "playing number games with the dead". Jayjg 04:30, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * What range of estimates? The death toll is crystal clear. Every fatality is listed by name, age and village on the page] that you and your friends voted to delete. You play games with the numbers to inflate the body count of militants to justify another Israeli atrocity in a long series. Your motives are also crystal clear. [[User:Alberuni|Alberuni 04:40, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * The end of the article lists different estimates from 4 sources, Reuters, Associated Press, the Al Mezan Center, and Israel. Why is the Al Mezan's tally the only correct one, and everyone else's (including that of Palestinian medics) suppressed? Jayjg 15:29, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Quote of widow non-notable
Why is the quote of the widow notable? Why does it belong in an encyclopedia article? Jayjg 02:29, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Occupation colonies"
Does anyone seriously believe describing Israeli settlements as "occupation colonies" is NPOV? Please take NPOV seriously. Jayjg 02:30, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I believe Occupied territories is NPOV. The settlements are colonies. What would you call them? Disputed facts on the ground? Your POV is getting in the way. Alberuni 03:14, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I personally would describe them as Israeli towns and villages, but that's not important. More relevant, the article should describe them the way they were already described, and the way Wikipedia describes them, as Israeli settlements, which is more NPOV than any of the other descriptions you've provided. Jayjg


 * Haha, you consider illegal Jewish settlements on Occupied Palestinian Territory to be Israeli towns and villages. Well, your POV is somewhere to the right of Ariel Sharon. But we already knew that. Alberuni 03:53, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Please use the Talk: pages to discuss article content, not me. Wikipedia has a name for these places, Israeli settlements, let's just use it. Jayjg 04:03, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Israeli settlements should be in Israel. These are Jewish settlements in Occupied Territory. Alberuni 04:41, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Your opinions about the way the world "should" run are interesting, but the world and Wikipedia both have a term for these towns, let's just use it. Jayjg 21:36, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Quote from Anan
The quote from Anan on Oct 3 is already in the timeline; why duplicate it in the summary? Jayjg 02:34, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Analysts on both sides agree"
"Analysts on both sides agree that Israel's proclamation of success is premature because the cause for attacks on Israel has not been removed and this bloody invasion has probably inspired more Palestinians to join active resistance."

Which analysts agreed to this? Did they really refer to it as a "bloody invasion"? Please provide references for this claim, the original source showed that "analysts on both sides" said something quite different:. Jayjg 02:34, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Analysts on both sides agree that Israel's invasion will not stop rocket attacks on illegal Jewish settlements in Occupied Palestinian Territory. Alberuni 02:35, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * But where did the analysts on both sides "agree that Israel's proclamation of success is premature because the cause for attacks on Israel has not been removed and this bloody invasion has probably inspired more Palestinians to join active resistance"? That is the claim made in the article. Jayjg 02:40, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Sderot is an "illegal Jewish settlements in Occupied Palestinian Territory"? Analysts don't say such things because analysts know geography.
 * The quotation above is clearly POV and the terminology you just used is unacceptable in Wiki articles. MathKnight 10:35, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Who sets the policy on use of terminology like Occupied Palestinian Territories in Wikipedia? --Alberuni 22:09, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * The policy is set by a compromise made by Wiki users. When there are highly disputed terms with flammable potential, user reach compromise about the most NPOV term which most users can live with. BTW: Sderot is outside the Gaza Strip. No one except Hamas calls Sderot an illegal settlement. The Hamas POV and terminology is not accepteable in most of the civilized world, including on Wiki. MathKnight 22:52, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * What does this have to do with the claim that "Analysts on both side agree"? Which analysts, and where did they say that? Jayjg 22:15, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Alberuni (2:38 revert was before your 2:40 comments, perhaps you should learn to read the time)
Please note the time of my comments above, they were all before 2:38 except my response to your 2:38 comment. You didn't even respond to the first 3 of my comments. Jayjg 03:16, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Entire article duplicated!
Alberuni, now you've duplicated the entire article, including events and timeline, and insisted on reverting to that several times! The article has suddently doubled in size, with no new information. What is the point of doing this? Jayjg 15:31, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks for noticing the glitch. --Alberuni 22:07, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Discussion of objections
1. The widow quote
 * The widow quote is notable and useful because it sums up the operation and its results:
 * The Qassams, the Israeli wanton and indiscriminate destruction and continued defiance of Palestinians in the face of it are all here in one sentences. The only thing missing is the deaths, otherwise we could replace the entire article with this quote. HistoryBuffEr 03:50, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)


 * The widow quote is a non-encyclopedic emotional response intended to invoke an emotional response. Dry facts, or statements by senior political figures or internationally reconized analysts are more relevant. Jayjg 15:56, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure you have not shed any tears over it. Opinion of ordinary Palestinians, without whose support there would be no resistance, is more important than what some stuffed suit says. HistoryBuffEr 01:53, 2004 Oct 22 (UTC)


 * Perhaps to you, but not to an encyclopedia article. Jayjg 02:36, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

2. Occupation colonies
 * Israel's occupation is a matter of fact under the International law and facts are inherently neutral. "Colonies" is an obvious and neutral term for places inhabited by the occupier/colonist (and "settlements" is obviously a pro-occupier term as it masks their true nature.) HistoryBuffEr 03:50, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)


 * Whether it is legally an occupation is widely disputed under International law; I'd like you to quote the relevant law, by the way. "Colonies" is an obviously NPOV term for the Israel towns and villages in the disputed territories.  "Settlements" itself is often seen as anti-Israel POV, since they are obviously simply towns and villages.  Regardless, Israeli settlements is the generally used term, and the term which Wikipedia uses as well. Jayjg 15:56, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * The dispute exists only in your extremist head. Even your Fuehrer admits it, so get over it. HistoryBuffEr 01:53, 2004 Oct 22 (UTC)


 * Israeli settlements is the generally used term, and the term which Wikipedia uses as well. Jayjg 02:36, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

3. Analysts on both sides agree
 * This "operation" has been widely discussed in the media (TV, newspapers, web). I have seen and read a handful of such discussions and the sentiment is pretty much unanimous, as described. If someone disagrees with the analysis, bring it on here (if you're good at it maybe we can sign you up for the next talk show :) HistoryBuffEr 03:50, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)


 * You have reversed the burden of proof. If there are analysts who say exactly what the article claims, then quote them, or even better link to them saying it. Jayjg 15:56, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * You have yet to tell us what do you disagree with in the analysis, without dispute there is nothing to prove. (That the invasion was bloody is a simple fact, if that's what bothers you.) HistoryBuffEr 01:53, 2004 Oct 22 (UTC)


 * See below for discussion of the POV term "bloody". See burden of proof for the rest. Jayjg 02:36, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

4. Quote from Annan
 * The quote from Annan (and Arab League call) is an obvious lead in to the next paragraph talking about UNSC discussions. Otherwise, the next paragrapgh hangs in the air (why the UNSC suddenly started debating?) HistoryBuffEr 03:50, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)


 * The UNSC "suddenly" starts debating just about every military action that Israel takes, regardless of what Annan does or doesn't say. The quote itself interrupted the flow of the overview with needless detail, and was simply duplicated from the actual detail section, given below. Jayjg 15:56, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * General rants are not considered effective arguments. The paragraph needs a lead in, and the short and NPOV sentence does it well. HistoryBuffEr


 * Exactly; general rants are not considered effective arguments, and the quote itself interrupted the flow of the overview with needless detail, and was simply duplicated from the actual detail section, given below. Jayjg 02:36, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * HistoryBuffEr 03:50, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)

""Laughing My Fucking Ass Off"
User Terrapin seems to think that the violent and bloody death of more than 130 people is something that you Laugh Your Fucking Ass Off about. Personally, I think this shows he is incapable of maintain a NPOV on this subject, and he would be best off joining the army or becoming a successful serial killer. - Xed 15:34, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was laughing at the assertion that inserting "bloody invasion" is a NEUTRAL POV (NPOV) statement.  Casualties are listed, there is no confirmation of just how "bloody" anything was, it's just baiting material. I think you might need to take a break from Wiki for awhile. Terrapin 15:39, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * So 130 deaths is not bloody? What would you describe as - peaceful? - Xed 15:55, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Here's some adjectives you can use instead of "bloody" (which was chosen only because its the most "visceral" and baiting adjective you can find, outside of maybe "bloodthirsty"). If you want, you can make the edit.  Here they are:  "violent, destructive, damaging,".  There are others less obnoxious and baiting than "bloody". Use your head and enthrall me with your writing skills! Terrapin 16:01, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Also, the quote implied that analysts from both sides described it as a "bloody invasion". Jayjg 15:42, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Did Xed just go insane?
See below. Terrapin 16:13, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * For examples of insanity, it would be best for you to consult a nearby mirror. Please get to work changing all the articles below - as your arguments suggest this is the only course open to you. -- Xed 16:22, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * * O.K., I will! POV statements in other articles doesn't validate the POV statement in THIS article. I will change them.  Do I have to do them in alphabetical order, or can I start with this one? Operation Days of Penitence.  I'll start with this one and work my way through some of these over time.  I take it I don't have to change article titles like "bloody mary". ;-)  Terrapin 16:27, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Come back to this article once you're done- Xed 16:32, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Now your argument is that I have to do them in alphabetical order, or in the order you require? How does finishing a job that would take weeks justify your position? Is your position now that you are indeed wrong, and now are just trying to buy time?  It would appear so, because you've dropped any coherent argument in favor of creating weird "edit rules".  Are you O.K.?  I'm serious.  People who are unable to maintain a clear focus in arguments can sometimes be helped by either an MAOI or Serotonin reuptake inhibitor. Terrapin 16:41, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Personal attacks are against the rules of Wikipedia. You can edit the articles in any order you prefer. Come back when you are finished. - Xed 16:56, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Rules which you have violated as well. 2 wrongs does not make a right.--Josiah 18:38, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Thank you for allowing me to pick the order. I start on THIS one. Terrapin 18:08, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Oh, and I HAVE changed some of them, too! I've started with some of the more pro-islam/pro-palestine articles (they're usually way more POV).  Your brothers in arms thank you. Terrapin 16:45, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Interesting that you start on those. "no one will question the POV of this user" - Xed 16:56, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Exactly; POV in other articles doesn't justify POV here. Define "bloody". Jayjg 16:30, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Bloody
A brief list of articles which use the word "bloody". It seems that in all other conflicts the word bloody can be used, with no one complaining. But when Palestinians die, it can NEVER be bloody. How odd. I expect you to change all these articles to remove the bloody, or leave the bloody in this article - Xed 16:08, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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1: ...f a popular non-alcoholic cocktail. It is a Bloody Mary made without vodka. Therefore, it is e...

3: ...her of Jesus]], by analogy with the fact that the Bloody Mary was named after Mary I of England.

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3: ...s that the prince had been frightened of the big, bloody knife and the king tossed it aside to calm the ch...

219.	Buffy Summers (5498 bytes)

220.	George III of the United Kingdom (34169 bytes)

221.	History of Bosnia and Herzegovina (33196 bytes)

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231.	History of Ireland (33157 bytes)

232.	History of Serbia and Montenegro (2213 bytes)

5: ...Battle of Kosovo|Kosovo]] (1389), that ended in a bloody draw. He turned back the invaders, but was killed...

233.	William Byrd (8432 bytes)

5: ...s, from the Netherlands, even from Spain. &ldquo;Bloody Mary&rdquo; spent her brief reign overreacting to...

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5: ... match seriously and the fighters beat each other bloody. But Rocky refuses to give up and fights Creed fo...

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3: ...erthrow the reactionaries via a long and possibly bloody fight.

238.	E. coli O157:H7 (14459 bytes)

1: ...United States alone. Infection often leads to bloody diarrhea, and occasionally to kidney fail...

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249.	Joe DiMaggio (12781 bytes)

250.	Battle of Spotsylvania Court House (5856 bytes)

3: ... Meade]]. Taking place less than a week after the bloody, inconclusive Battle of the Wilderness, it pi.

Jayjg, 4 reverts warning
Jayjg, you have made 4 reverts in minutes. This is a clear violation of rules.

Your revert history now exceeds any sysop.

You are a prime candidate for a de-sysop call. Consider this an official warning. HistoryBuffEr 04:42, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)

Update: Jayjg has made 5 reverts in 17 minutes. HistoryBuffEr 04:45, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)


 * Nonsense, the versions are not all the same. However, you certainly have made 4 reverts in the same time period. Jayjg 04:48, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * You have now made 6 reverts in less than 1 hour. After 3 reverts, you made a (completely unnecessary) change in just one sentence (such as adding "which were" in front of "used".) and then reverted to that version 3 times. Your childish excuses and petulance are laughable. This is my LAST EVER reply to you. HistoryBuffEr 05:33, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)
 * Pro-Terror POV is Pro-Terror POV, so it'll get reverted by someone on wiki. If Jayjg wants to do it for the rest of us, more power to him.  Terrapin 05:35, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * His reverts are justified indeed. You might try to use the Talk page to discuss your addition before you force when most people do not agree to them. Until then, every revert of your problematic edits is justified, even if behind the usual quota per day. MathKnight 20:27, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * It's wonderful to see you've discovered this Talk: page, HistoryBuffEr. The purpose of Talk: pages is not to threaten Wikipedia editors using false claims, but to actually discuss and get consensus on major changes to an article before entering them.  I recommend you use this page for exactly that purpose in the future.  Jayjg 05:38, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * The rhetoric of this article is strongly POV pro Palestinian. Reithy 05:57, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Alberuni and the others are holocaust deniers and terrorist sympathizers. Go take a look at some of their other comments and contributions. Ignore them, then revert them. Terrapin 06:03, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Try to cool it down and not attack people. It is clear that the both as clear agenda of pro-Palestinian edits, and some degree of sympathy toward Palestinian terrorists organizations such as Hamas. Unless they will bother to Talk and interact with others, revert as neccesary any abuses of this article (such as deletions of the number of combatants killed, etc). MathKnight 20:27, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * A little bird tells me Terrapin is heading for a ban for these remarks - Xed 07:51, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * And personal page vandalism ISN'T bannable? How many times have you ALREADY been banned?  Five? (it's at least two, judging by RfA) Terrapin 19:30, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * A little bird tells me everyone involved should stop personal attacks, and that includes you Xed. Reithy 10:01, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)


 * If these kinds of remarks were enough to ban someone, then I can think of a number of editors of this and related articles who would have been banned long before Terrapin. Jayjg 20:47, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Proposed changes to this page
Here is the place to propose significant changes to this page. Please proceed. Jayjg 16:08, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Markup error - please fix after unprotection
This page apppeared in a list of markup errors at User:Nickj/Wiki_Syntax/00002, but I can't fix it because the page is protected. In the last sentence of the first bullet point under "October 5", the following link is incorrect:
 * should be:
 * &mdash;AlanBarrett 07:57, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * &mdash;AlanBarrett 07:57, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * &mdash;AlanBarrett 07:57, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Thank you. MathKnight 10:10, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Minor Markup error
Under October 15, point 6, as part of the Wiki Syntax Project, can the extra square bracket before the web link please be deleted when this page is unprotected: Unopened or unclosed and ] : On line that starts with: * In [[Rafah, two soldiers are lightly injured from an anti-tank missile. [(Haaretz)

All the best, Nickj 06:38, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This page
Isn't neutral enough

External links modified
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Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Operation Autumn Clouds which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:31, 8 December 2019 (UTC)