Talk:2005 Cronulla riots

Please reference correctly
When reading this article I checked the references cited and I noticed a distrubing trend. When the references, majority of them from Media websites, stated "people/men of Mediterranean or Middle Eastern appearance" the author of the Cronulla Riots Wiki article had changed it to "Arab or Lebanese people/men". I asked all editors of Wiki that they stay true to their references or not add the references at all. RenziAu (talk) 02:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Referencing correctly for this subject is something of an oxymoron. What might help this article is the underlying causes of the riots, and that does not seem to be mentioned anywhere. The reigning ALP had instructed the NSW police to go easy on ethnic offenders as they were overly represented in gaols. Essentially the ALP became apologists for Arab criminal gangs. Increasing street violence led white militant groups to retaliate directly. We can see the same type of apologetic correctness emerging now in Europe, where the last series of terrorist attacks have been attributed to mental illness.203.221.157.17 (talk) 10:13, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

History
The article implies that the problems began with the bashing of the lifesavers. Not so. For many years, large numbers of "young men of Middle Eastern appearance" had been coming to Cronulla intent on causing trouble. This ranged from verbally harassing sunbaking women ("sluts") because they were not modestly dressed, taking over areas in numbers and roughing up any none-ME appearanced person who entered (turf war style), to just picking fights and solving them ME style - bringing in 10 mates to beat up one white Australian. This had been going on for several years. Most of it was unreported in the press because the State Govt was seeking racial harmony at any cost, and the police were asked to "play it down". I worked in the area in those years, and I also attended a gym frequented by local police. They knew what was going on. The locals knew what was going on. It had been going on for *years*. This didn't just come out of nowhere. --60.240.68.54 (talk) 13:52, 24 October 2009 (UTC)


 * That said I agree that there are holes in this article. There needs to be mention of 'racial' events leading up to the 'riot'(ie. gang rapes a year earlier?), the immediate aftermath ie. "Fortress Cronulla", and its' lasting effects, ie. the increased police presence on the anniversaries in the years following. There is very little (any?) mention of the hundreds of car windows, and shop windows smashed in the Dec 12 'revenge attacks'. One problem is that the many hearsay stories of 'incidents' cannot be included due to Wikipedia policies, as many were presumably never reported. There are some that were, but others may have been exaggerated or even fabricated.


 * As it is now the article doesn't even say, except quite vaguely, where the events actually occured. Little menton of the Cronulla Station train assaults. No mention that the guy attacked by about 30 on Sunday 12th was very near the Police Station. Maybe needs more mention of the 'political correctness' aspect. I will 'fix' some of these. Comments? --220.101.28.25 (talk) 17:29, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Care to articulate -intelligently- and -logically- the relevancy of those gang rapes to this? I agree that the Lebanese boys responsible for those attacks are scum but if the motivation of the riot was to avenge victims of sex crimes why haven't these white trash bogans gone around indiscriminately bashing footballers who are also guilty of gang rape? The bikepath assailant in Brisbane was white so why didn't they go around bashing their own? Perhaps it's because these thugs don't give a s--- about the plight of girls. One only need to look at some of them to know they're as misogynist as they are racist. Even bogans wearing the flag as their own personal symbol of hate at the Big Day Out were reported to have made misogynist remarks to females passing by. So how are they any better than their Lebanese adversaries? They're not. Stop pretending that those who orchestrated Cronulla are somehow heroes who defend the interests of the fairer sex. They're not. And if 60.240.68.54 honestly believes that white men don't go around calling women "sluts" and dehumanising them at every opportunity then he is a brainless wonder. You clowns can spare me your infantile "leftie", "bleeding heart", "politically correct" or what the f--- ever predictable responses too. I am not some small l f-- liberal. I just don't like seeing intellectually-challenged criminals and misfits being lauded as heroes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.18.34.5 (talk) 06:28, 23 November 2009‎


 * Good response. This article needs more attention from regular wikipedia writers, those who strive for impartiality rather then those with a point or goal to accomplish that is related specifically to the outcome of the event described in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Senor Freebie (talk • contribs) 05:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Article Tubala Rasa
I decided that The article was in to much of a mess to clean properly, so I decided to start again from scratch. I have now copy–pasted my version over the older version. The new version is a bit smaller (3,020 words/42,947 bytes) compared to the older version (5,455 words/57,952 bytes) but is CITEd a lot better, much more NPOV. Lets try and improve the article instead of getting into flame and edit wars. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 08:45, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Australian Flag Kissing
Thanks for all the great work on a complex article.I'm curious as to the reports of people being forced to kiss the Australian flag, under threats of violence for not doing it.Such a warped patriotism needs study and reporting.Thanks to Sanquis Sanies & all for good work. Should article be frozen by locking to save all the references etc?It's such a hotbed of controversy.Ern Malleyscrub (talk) 04:12, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Stacks [1] of references [2]
Just noticed [1][2] how many references [3] punctuate every sentence [4][5][6][7][8] in this article [9]. Is there not a better way [10][11][12] to present [13] these [14] citations [16][17]? Tim Bennett (talk) 05:34, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Generally references appear after punctuation, and a given reference can be assumed to apply for any preceding claims not specifically referenced that lead up to it. Thus, as an example, the line:
 * Two of the youths who attacked Jake Schofield turned themselves into police[22] and where charged with; armed robbery,[22] wounding,[22] malicious wounding with intent,[22] affray[22] and assault occasioning actual bodily harm.[22]
 * Can be better expressed as:
 * Two of the youths who attacked Jake Schofield turned themselves into police and where charged with; armed robbery, wounding, malicious wounding with intent, affray and assault occasioning actual bodily harm.[22]
 * and readers would be expected to assume that the reference (as it does) refers to all the claims in a sentence. Similarly, it isn't necessary to have separate references for every claim in the middled of a line, although there's nothing technically wrong with it - it is normally acceptable just to place multiple references at the end. So examples such as:
 * A 26–year–old mechanic[20] dubbed “Dan”[21] was stabbed in the back three times[20] and twice in the thigh[20] with a 9.8 centimetre blade[20] at approximately 22:25.[16]
 * could be simplified to:
 * A 26–year–old mechanic dubbed “Dan” was stabbed in the back three times and twice in the thigh with a 9.8 centimetre blade at approximately 22:25.[16][20][21]
 * Unless someone expresses a problem, I'm inclined to go through and simplify the referencing to improve legibility. - Bilby (talk) 21:35, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The actual bad thing about this is the massive obfuscation of the wiki source code, potentially keeping editors from contributing. I think this is a well-meant attempt to cover a potentially disputed topic, but it takes a form that could be called "anti-wiki". Just look at this:
 * On December 12 rioters had written various Anti-Australian sentiments including; “Aussi [sic] to Die”, “Intifada”, “It’s war”, “Sunday cowards die, Soldiers rize [sic]”, “Never rest assie [sic] dog”, “Yous came by chains u convict dogs”, and “We fear no ozy [sic] pigs” before continuing destroying cars and local shops.
 * reads, in source,
 * On December 12 rioters had written various Anti-Australian sentiments including; “Aussi [sic] to Die”, “Intifada”, “It’s war”, “Sunday cowards die, Soldiers rize [sic]”, “Never rest assie [sic] dog”, “Yous came by chains u convict dogs”, and “We fear no ozy [sic] pigs” before continuing destroying cars and local shops.
 * where the very same thing could be written as
 * On December 12 rioters had written various Anti-Australian sentiments including; “Aussi [sic] to Die”, “Intifada”, “It’s war”, “Sunday cowards die, Soldiers rize [sic]”, “Never rest assie [sic] dog”, “Yous came by chains u convict dogs”, and “We fear no ozy [sic] pigs” before continuing destroying cars and local shops.


 * Theoprakt (talk) 17:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Should be cleaned-up a bit better.Sanguis Sanies (talk) 15:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Bias and balance?
It seems odd to me that in the section describing the initial riot that spawned from Cronulla, it offhandedly mentions 26 people being treated for injuries, including 2 who required hospitalisation, while in the section describing the "retalliation" the perpetrators are vigorously described and the victims noted individually. Often this can occur when media reports are limited on an event like attacks in Iraq. However I remember clearly hearing numerous articles quoting victims of the original white rioters, such as an Italian and a South American man confused for Lebanese and assaulted. The fact that these articles are not cited and that the articles describing the small number of assaults later that have been labelled "retalliations" seems to me to be deliberate soap boxing and bias intended to give people a certain emotive response to this article.--Senor Freebie (talk) 05:33, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Do you have these articles? I'd be glad to incorporate them into the article. Additionally in "Retaliation" I did go into extra detail based on the sources I had, I gave as much detail as was available into the police officer and ambulance officers that were injured. It's not a bias on my behalf (and certainly not soapboxing), just going on the information from the sources I could find. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 07:21, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree that the article now looks more like a hit piece. There was considerably more "white" violence than the article implies. I deleted attacks that occured after the riots ended that had nothing to do with them. Wayne (talk) 18:41, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

You state that a Lebanese immigrant stole the flag from the RSL at Brighton and spent three months in jail as his sentence. He was under 18 so couldn't be indetified in the media (althought he was, repeatedly),Austrlain-born and his sentence was a Youth Justice Conference after he spent 3 months on remand waiting for his trial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.1.92 (talk) 09:42, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * This article panders to the people who caused all the trouble and is far too politically correct; so much so that anyone who didn't already know what happened would be left totally confused and wouldn't be able to figure out what was going on. The article should make clear in the introduction that the life guards were beaten up by a Middle Eastern gang and told that the gang owned the beach from then on. The article should also mention the teenager who burnt the Australian flag from the RSL club, since that was an important event that many people would remember. (Huey45 (talk) 02:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC))
 * The article is accurately based on the sources. Your description - "the life guards were beaten up by a Middle Eastern gang and told that the gang owned the beach from then on" - is not an accurate reflection of the most reliable sources. It presents as fact what was a report or allegation, and implies the initial alleged violence was one-way, whereas the event apepars to have been an escalating exchange beginning with verbal abuse from both sides. I am not aware of a reliable source confirming that the eight men were a gang (which would be taken to mean an organisation, not just a group of friends), nor that they said that they "owned the beach from then on", though there may be claims that this was said. The article does a reasonable job of presenting a very controversial topic i think. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:09, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Howard / Costello quotes
Note on this -

Australian Prime Minister John Howard condemned the violence describing it as “sickening and deplorable”[44] but denied any racial undertones saying the events were primarily an issue of law and order:[44][46] “The Sydney riots were an example of hoodlums who got out of control.”[45]

If you go to the article cited in #45, it appears that the quote about "hoodlums" actually came from Peter Costello. The way it's written is unclear and could be read as attributing the quote to John Howard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FlyingSquirrel42 (talk • contribs) 22:21, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I've reworded it to suit - that was a fairly significant error, so I'm very glad it was spotted. :) - Bilby (talk) 01:45, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Contreversy in sentencing
Hi all, I'm new to wikipedia, but I thought it was worth noting the very strange sentences handed down to multiple people involved in the riot. As stated in the article

Yahya Jamal Serhan was arrested over the stabbing of “Dan” on December 12 and charged with affray and maliciously inflicting grievous bodily harm and was sentenced to 13 months jail but was immediately released after having already spent nine months in custody awaiting trial.[22][34] Dan was angered and disappointed by the sentence “I’ve got no feeling on the left hand side of my back where the knife broke off.”[34] A second person, a 17-year–old, was also questioned by police.[35]

Marcus Kapitza,[36] 28, was jailed for 12 months after pleading guilty to one charge of riot.[36] On the day of the riot Kapitza wore a singlet with the words “Mohammed was a camel-raping faggot.”[36] He was also involved in the attack at the train station '''shouting “Fuck off! Fuck off the Lebs.”[36] Brent Lohman,[37] 19, was also charged over the train station assault was sentenced to 11 months in jail'''.[37]

I'm sure it's worth noting in an encyclopedia that words and writing are considered worse crimes than stabbing someone. Like I said I'm new to this so please go easy but I thought this should be included thanks =)124.176.145.205 (talk) 13:04, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.ombo.nsw.gov.au/publication/PDF/other%20reports/review%20of%20emerency%20powers%20to%20prevent%20or%20control%20disorder.pdf
 * In 2005 Cronulla riots on 2011-05-25 07:56:52, 404 Not Found
 * In 2005 Cronulla riots on 2011-06-12 00:55:04, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 00:55, 12 June 2011 (UTC) fixed, replaced with current link on NSW Ombudsman's site WotherspoonSmith (talk) 09:47, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

removing citations, tidyng text
Based on he above comments, I have tidied many of the citations- but it still has a long way to go. Mostly, to improve readibilty, i shifted the citations ot the end of sentences or paragraphs,but have actually removed only one- an opinion piece by Paul Shehan, which only repeated and editorialised coments provieded in other places. There are still around 19 citation of the sixty minutes article- not sure if we actually need any of them... WotherspoonSmith (talk) 04:37, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Erm...
Why is this not in the category "racism in Australia"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.224.17.99 (talk) 00:10, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Because it's already in Category:Race riots in Australia, which is a subcategory of the racism cat. Graham 87 15:32, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Recent source
This largely relates to the guy who was stabbed near Woolooware Golf Club. . dailymail.co.uk, but may also have other details not currently covered in the article. 220  of  Borg 11:47, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Poor quality of article
I'd like to compare this article to the 2005 Paris riots article in order to show its many shortfalls. In particular, I came here looking for background and aftermath of this incident, but the wiki article is basically useless in both regards. There's no mention of Lebanese gangs being a growing source of concern of the previous decade, but for some bizarre reason there is a mention that 'westies' often get in to fights at the beach. For those unaware, that's the equivalent of an American saying "rednecks sometimes get in to fights at the beach". It is a very strange thing to put in an encyclopaedia. There is also a lot of use of language such as "a media report states" and "the claim was made" when speaking of things that might damage the image of one ethnicity, but anything in their favour, or damaging to the other ethnicity involved, is merely stated as fact. The talk page talks at length about using good sources - but the article quotes Alan Jones at length. This is a man that made a living from saying stupid things for the purpose of creating controversy.

The background needs to mention the previous growing concerns, particularly in light of resistance from police to admit that gangs were related to ethnicity, suppressing reports to the contrary, leading to policing failures such as the gang rapes that terrorised Sydney for so long, a refusal to work with Police Commissioner Ryan who warned of Lebanese gangs, and the belief that police would not help people if the perpetrators were of a particular ethnicity. Sydney from the late nineties up to this point were terrorised by gangs such as the DK boys; the drive by shooting of a police station; the gang rapists that used taunts such as "you're not human, just an Aussie" and "we wouldn't do this to a real muslim girl, just white sluts"; attempted terrorist attack on the nuclear plant shortly before; actual terrorist attacks by muslims in Bali; and other worldwide events showing the radicalisation of those from the middle east. The aftermath needs to mention the formation of the Middle Eastern Organised Crime Squad, and its current focus on Australians fighting for ISIS and other terrorist organisations. I mention their current focus because of the ignorant statements elsewhere on this talk page that 'bogans' are just as bad as the Sydney gang rapists, and that macho surfies are as bad as middle eastern gangs:

"a suicide bomber who killed three people in Baghdad in July. The Islamic State named the bomber as Abu Bakr al-Australi on its Twitter feed. It also includes two men from Sydney, Khaled Sharrouf and Mohamed Elomar, who have posted images from Syria on Twitter, showing them posing with the heads of executed fighters, holding guns and standing over bloodied bodies."

Frankly, all I got from the wiki article as it stands is "there was a fight, then a riot, because Australia is racist." It's exactly the sort of response that allowed the fear to fester to begin with, and directly led to people believing a violent protest was the only way they could respond. I write this here, and not in the article, because I know it will be deleted. That's Wikipedia - more biased, more irrelevant every year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.178.26.167 (talk) 15:08, 21 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I find it ironic that you conclude with 'Wikipedia- more biased, more irrelevant..." when you mostly wanted more biased and irrelevant things added to the article. If you have citations/ sources supporting your claims, put them here or in the article. I can't find anything on the web with your quotes about raping white girls, for example. If you know of background (etc) that can be shown to be relevant, we'll add it. This is not a page of the history of all (real or undocumented) Lebanese or Muslim interactions in Australia- it's just about the riots.

I:If you can be specific about the sections that are biased towards/ against specific races, though, I'll happily change them for you.WotherspoonSmith (talk) 14:16, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Well i've just looked at it right now and this article is hogwash. It mentions westies whatever that means and makes only 1 reference to some muslim organisation giving a speech or whatever tripe. So why is a muslim organisation half way down the page if this was all about these mythological ''westiess' ? It was clearly a riot started by australians getting pissed off by the years of muslim aggression in the area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.255.207.164 (talk) 22:24, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Biased framing of the introduction
"The riots stemmed from tensions between youths from Sydney's Lebanese and white populations. A crowd gathered at Cronulla on the morning of Sunday, 11 December, and, by midday, approximately 5,000 people had gathered near the beach. The gathering began peacefully, but later in the afternoon a man of Middle Eastern appearance was surrounded outside a local hotel and attacked by members of the crowd"

While a later section does mention the bashing of volunteer lifeguards and the 40 year old anglo male by Lebanese gangs, it's completely absent from the introduction, while the attack on a middle eastern appearing man is highlighted. Anyone reading just the introduction would certainly interpret this as meaning that locals or Anglos threw the first punches, which wasn't the case. There was more than "tensions between youths", assaults against lifeguards and other locals had already started immediately prior to the riot. 14.200.91.233 (talk) 04:03, 14 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Remember, this is an article about the riots, not the history of race relationships in Cronulla. It is appropriate, in my opinion, that the intro gives a line or so about the precursors, then describes the riots, then a line or so about the aftermath.
 * RE: "Anyone reading just the introduction would certainly interpret this as meaning that locals or Anglos threw the first punches, which wasn't the case." As far as the riots themselves are concerned, that was the case, and this is an article about the actual riots. The later article sections make the whole setting clear, in my opinion. I'm happy for anyone with no historical connection to Australia or the riots to chime in with an opinion. WotherspoonSmith (talk) 05:56, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I think you're choosing an arbitrary time and date to say 'the riots started here', to suit a particular narrative, when in fact the affrays and mob violence against locals had already commenced immediately prior. 5000 people didn't just turn up from nowhere to start attacking Lebs, as the introduction implies. 14.200.91.233 (talk) 12:49, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

The origin of the riots
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/signals-of-jihad-in-australia-have-been-building-for-years-20140924-10lhon.html

If this is a valid source, it explains and justifies the riots. The events also followed the, This is the context for the violence. No wonder the crowd was so angry. Harassment of women is completely unacceptable. It explains the violence. What I understand is that Muslim men had been harassing western women, almost irrespective of what they wore for years, calling them sluts and whores. I am sorry. In my brief search, I have not been able to find good references for this in Australia, although I have read and heard this is what led to the riots. Overseas, there are clear references to unrelenting harassment of non-Muslim women, along with rape "on an Industrial scale".
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes

Other related incidents
 * http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/police-would-not-have-met-numan-haider-had-officers-known-of-facebook-posts-20160315-gnjju4.html

The article, as written, seems narrow. It does not describe the actions that led up to the Cronula riots.

Thepigdog (talk) 13:10, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Nb. I lived in Cronulla very near where this occurred, for 16 years before the riot, and 10 after. I saw some of the rioting, and especially observed the aftermath where literally hundreds of cars were smashed up on Elouera Road in the revenge attacks. That doesn't seem to have got much media coverage. I don't think the police Strike Force Neil after riot reports eg even mentions it, IIRC. 220  of  Borg 05:13, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
 * , I tend to disagree. See 2005 Cronulla riots "There is also a history of conflict between Cronulla locals and those visiting from the Western suburbs ("Westies") with "bashings" common since the 1960s as part of a turf war between Westies and local surfies." It could be more detailed. As you said, lot of stories are told about 'anglos' esp. women being harassed, but are not reliably verifiable.
 * You're clearly clueless or have an agenda. I'm betting on the second. This westies nonsense is shitty as coverups go. Try harder. It was muslims acting a fool for years and they got swiped. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.255.207.164 (talk) 22:27, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * My girlfriend lives in the Shire, is Asian and reckons she's never experienced racism from any of the locals there, in all the years she's lived there, either before and after the riots (and she interacted with MANY). It's also very well known that non-local gangs were regularly harassing women, to the point where many would avoid the beach and certainly avoid it without protective escorts. I think it's very racist against the local that the riots have been painted as primarily about race, rather than about the behaviour of a particularly group people, who regularly attended and happened to be of a particular race. 14.200.91.233 (talk) 12:58, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

2002 gang rapes
I've removed the text:


 * Events prior to the riots such as the Sydney rape gangs, executed by Lebanese-Australians, created a withstanding infamous reputation for the Lebanese community. And thus carved the potential for racism and rejection from the greater Australian community. The disorderly behavior of some in the Lebanese community particularly the rape gangs, was still ripe in the minds of people. As Michael Mohammed Ahmad states the concept of the infamous 'Leb', was still around by 2005. And by the time of the Cronulla Riots, the community had hit its flash-point against the 'Leb'; it had reached its 'violent zenith'.


 * One of the most notorious and widely reported offences by Lebanese-Australian individuals. The Sydney rape gangs were a series of racially motivated gang rapes instigated by Lebanese-Australian youths which occurred prior to the Cronulla Riots, between August and September of 2000. Centered around the South-West region of Sydney, one incident occurred in the suburb of Bankstown, 18 km away from Cronulla. Involving a group of 14 Lebanese-Australians, with the specific intent of targeting and raping Anglo-Celtic, white Australian women and teenage girls. In one case a female victim was as young as 14. Described by officials and commentators alike as being a series of explicitly racially motivated attacks against white Australians.  Evidence pertaining to racial motivation were asserted by the Lebanese-Australian youths during the gang rapes, whereby they divulged several racial slurs aimed at white Australians. Including: "You deserve it because you're an Australian", "I'm going to fuck you Leb-style" and "Aussie pigs" during their assaults. Alongside the racial motivation for the rapes, also came an apparent religious motivation specifically aimed at Christian and/or Catholic peoples. As evident by text messages left by the rapists such as, "When you are feeling down... bash a Christian or Catholic and lift up". The aggravated racial and religious motivations behind the rapes were of such considerable extent, that Judge Michael Finnane presiding over the incidents, described the rapes as events that "you hear about or read about only in the context of wartime atrocities".

I think that there might be something in it - the Sydney gang rapes were a possible influence on the riots, and we may have sources that connect the two. My problem is that they haven't been presented yet. The nearest is the Patrick Wood article but the connection it draws is the concept of lebs, rather than saying that the Cronulla riots were more directly connected to the 2000 gang rapes. Do we have any sources available which will connect the two more directly? - Bilby (talk) 11:11, 26 June 2018 (UTC)